HavenBuilders Forum Entries from 2000 through 2007:[ http://www.havenbuilder.com/Forum7/HTML/000001.html]

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posted 10-30-2000 07:17 PM
This is great! A gathering place for Haven builders is a dream come true. Since this is such a complicated boat, assistance, guidence and a place to bounce off ideas is a treat. I look forward to seeing it all come
together.
Paul
Raleigh, NC USA - Monday, September 11, 2000 at 12:23:45 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 07:22 PM
This is a great idea - a site for Haven builders- I'm in the middle of building, been at it since about 1990.
Currently ready to start planking. I'll send some pictures and then to lots of questions. I'm new to the
internet also so not surer of e mail address but it goes like this BLKPHANTOM4 on aol.
Jack O'Leary
Spokane , Wa USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 00:24:26 (EDT) :

posted 10-30-2000 07:40 PM
Many thanks to Jack O'Leary for his wonderful construction photos! http://www.havenbuilders.com/oleary.html
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 19:54:22 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 08:19 PM
Great pictures and building comments Jack. Thanks Tom for posting them.
Larry
USA - Wednesday, October 25, 2000 at 06:48:30 (EDT)
Bravo Jack and Tom! Under 'Useful Tools' he lists in capital letters: VISA CARD! ROTFLMAO!
Rick Starr <starr@viaccess.net>
USA - Sunday, October 22, 2000 at 22:22:38 (EDT

posted 10-30-2000 08:45 PM
Tom, The site is off to a great start. I for one appreciate your effort and will be happy to add any input I may
have. I just completed the molds and today I'm off to my hardwood supplier for the Mahogany and White Oak for the Stem and Transom. I will keep the site posted as to my progress and digital pictures.
Larry Kemp <lk-lk@worldnet.att.net>
USA - Saturday, September 09, 2000 at 08:37:59 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 07:20 PM
I have heard estimates of around $6,000 for materials, not including sails or trailer.
Tom <tom@tomsown.com>
USA - Friday, September 15, 2000 at 08:54:01 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 07:20 PM
Would $6000 include the lead keel?
Mike
USA - Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 15:28:12 (EDT)
IP: Logged

posted 10-30-2000 07:23 PM
I wouldn't think so. Maybe if you poured your own lead keel. There are several vendors up North who cast the lead ballast for the Haven. I believe one can even purchase one form Eric (Haven)Dow. I believe the
precast will run you about $1,000 FOB. My estimate is about $8,000 to $12,00 including sails and trailer.
Paul
USA - Monday, September 18, 2000 at 17:06:05 (EDT

Added 1/18/2012 - see http://www.havenbuilder.com/havenbuilders/nielsen/HCCE.htm

posted 10-30-2000 07:33 PM
WOW! I am marveling at Ron's building time for his Haven 121/2 - 900 hours. I estimate that I will have between 1,500 and 2,000 hours in my boat. Ron, is this your first boat? I recall reviewing the Launching section several months ago were a Have had been launched and the builder said he had about 600 hours in the boat. Are these semi-professional builders or am I just slow? Ron, did you work full time on your
boat?
Paul
USA - Tuesday, September 26, 2000 at 12:43:02 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 07:38 PM
Paul, No I am not a full time woodworker although I am pretty well obsessed with the craft and have been for about 30 years or so. I worked evenings and weekends at a fairly steady pace. We started on the Haven, named Woodwind, in September and launched her the following August. She is a joy to sail, a small boat with the same feeling and response as a large one. Good luck on your project!
Ron Klebba
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:30:02 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 07:39 PM
Paul, The Haven was our first sailboat. Last winter two friends and myself built 2 cedar strip kayaks, design by Steve Killing. We used the plans from Ted Moore's book available from Woodenboat. I am now very
near to beginning the lofting for a Rozinante by L. Francis Herreschoff with a design update by Doug Hylan. Very exciting stuff for a woodworker/sailor!!! Good luck!!
Ron Klebba
USA - Wednesday, September 27, 2000 at 18:36:17 (EDT)

Roger F. Winiarski
Moderator

posted 11-14-2000 10:04 PM
In doing my research on the Herreshoff 12 1/2 I came to know an elderly man that used to work at Herreshoff Mfg. and but these boats. They were usually built in lots of at least 5 and the average building time was 350 man hours. I am still working on him but he has his own hand written copy of the Herreshoff shop manual on how to build the 12 1/2. I hope to get him to let me copy it. If anyone is interested I have two original pages of Herreshoff Mfg. Co. plans for the 12 1/2 from 1938.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

Paul

posted 11-16-2000 12:13 PM
Hey Roger, I talked with you yesterday! Looking forward to getting those fittings. Please let me know if and when you get a copy of the building manual. I would love to get a copy for myself. I believe the two pages you discussed are the ones we talked about yesterday.

Rolf

posted 02-13-2001 08:55 AM
Sounds very exciting!
I'm also interested in a copy of this manual.
I'm back in the 12 1/2 building business after almost a year break. Now I got a new shop with enough space for the boat and the machinery.
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Paul

posted 02-15-2001 05:16 PM
Hey, Rolf.......didn't you start your Haven about the same time I started mine. Or am I getting you mixed up with someone else? I believe you even posted some pics right?
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Rolf

posted 02-21-2001 06:50 AM
Hello Paul,
yes you are right. We started at the same time, but I had a looooong break. I was running out of space in my car-port. It took me almost a year to find the "perfect" place. Now I have a much bigger barn, and I have allready made the final setup. At the moment I'm shaping the transom, and do a little fairing the frames.
BTW: my centerboard trunk is about half an inch to low! The messurment of the floorboard cutouts vs. the construction base is correct, and also the thickness of the bedlogs. But there is a half inch gap between the cb-bedlogs and the keel? Do you experienced this also?
Rolf

Paul

posted 02-22-2001 12:31 PM
Hey Rolf! Glad to hear you are back at it! BTW I should be launching my boat in late May or early June...It will be ready in April but the lead time on the sails and fittings was a little longer than I had anticipated so I have to wait until I receive those items.
I did have a problem with the center board trunk. I ended up shimming it in place for the correct height above the construction baseline. I believe the book even says something like......the fore and aft heights above the construction line are critical....shim if neccessary. In the end it all came out beautifully. If I had to do it over and give anyone advise would be to construct a mock up of the bedlogs and work the mold stations out before getting out and installing the floor timbers.

gmeadows

posted 01-03-2003 09:09 PM
Roger, Please send copies of this Haven building manual if you still have them. Thanks, Glenn Meadows gmeadows@attbi.com
quote:
Originally posted by Roger F. Winiarski:
In doing my research on the Herreshoff 12 1/2 I came to know an elderly man that used to work at Herreshoff Mfg. and but these boats. They were usually built in lots of at least 5 and the average building time was 350 man hours. I am still working on him but he has his own hand written copy of the Herreshoff shop manual on how to build the 12 1/2. I hope to get him to let me copy it. If anyone is interested I have two original pages of Herreshoff Mfg. Co. plans for the 12 1/2 from 1938.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

posted 10-30-2000 07:56 PM
How 'bout the Flatfish? Any thoughts? experiences? Anyone share my angst over which one to build...Haven or Flatfish?
Rick <starr@viaccess.net>
St. Croix, vi USVI - Thursday, September 28, 2000 at 17:45:19 (EDT)

posted 10-30-2000 08:04 PM
Hey Rick! The flatfish is a handsome boat! I am a boatbuilding novice, thus I chose the Haven because there was a building manual available and it didn't have to be lofted. If I were more confident in my abilities I may have taken on the Flatfish. Some of the problems I had with the Haven (and from what I have heard from others) may not have happened if the boat was lofted from scratch or if the diagonals were available. I have
truly enjoyed building the Haven. In the beginning I anquished over the planking technique. In the end I settled for carvel. If I were to go at it again, I might would go with speed strip and a veneer covering. Either way, I don't think you can go wrong with either version. The Haven is going to be just right for my family of four. Of course I am always pouring over designs and thinking I should have built one with a small cabin to give my wife and two daughters a little privacy. I have been educating them on the cedar bucket I plan to
build. They aren't impressed.
Paul
USA - Friday, September 29, 2000 at 13:01:18 (EDT)

Rick Starr

posted 11-09-2000 08:05 AM
Thanks Paul for the reply. The extra bit about lofting, not to mention the 4 extra feet of LOA probably keep alot of folks away. If I were blessed with unlimited time and resources, I'd build the Haven first, then try the Flatfish if so moved. 'Course, could be that others with the same idea fall in love with their Havens and never feel the need to move up to the Flatfish.
Anyway, big congrats to the powers that be on the site, the forum and the UBB sponsorship by Bristol Bronze. Nice Job.

posted 10-30-2000 08:05 PM
Some interesting reading for Joel White fans. www.randomhouse.com/boldtype/0899/whynott/notebook.html
Larry
USA - Thursday, October 05, 2000 at 07:14:58 (EDT)

posted 11-18-2001 04:27 PM
Another must read is the new book "Wooden Boats" by Michael Ruhlman. See http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/014200121X/ruhlmancom

posted 10-30-2000 08:15 PM
Hey Ron! Is your Haven carvel planked? If so, how is it handling the trailering.
Paul
USA - Friday, October 20, 2000 at 08:53:23 (EDT)
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Admin5
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posted 10-30-2000 08:18 PM
Great site. I have a question, how does the Cold Molded Haven standup to being trailered? thanks.
lundy <il2pg@hotmail.com>
TN USA - Monday, October 30, 2000 at 10:01:26 (EST)
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Erick Singleman
Builder
Posts: 10
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 12-14-2000 11:18 PM
As far as trailering goes, I was wondering how easy it is to launch a Haven from the trailer? Does it require a steep ramp slope? Are there any other difficulties?
I was thinking about cold molding or strip to accomodate trailering, but if there are hassels associated with trailering, I might consider POF (probably a more enjoyable process) and getting a slip at a marina.
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Don M
Builder
Posts: 3
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-02-2001 08:57 PM
I launched my haven in June and have trailered it back and forth to the Bay about 60 miles each way about 9 times so far. I also made a 700 mile trip recently with it. The hull has been out of water finished for about 6 years during construction phase... just got wet this summer. My sailing usually is a 4 to 8 hours in the water each time. Seams are payed with sikaflex 231. Bare wood of carvel cedar hull was primed with Petite epoxy undercoat (the stuff used for priming fiberglass to prevent osmosis problems .. works good on bare wood and doesn't let water in or out at any significant rate). So far I don't have any seams opening, no apparent affects of trailering other than the usual docking and launching dings that can occur. The paint is brightside and has a toxic bottom paint (that I don't need unless I decide to stay in the warm gulf waters for a week or so straight. Anyway, time will tell if I continue to do so well with a trailered Carvel hull. I built it. It's beautiful. And I'm going to sail it at every opportunity.
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roger mullette
Valued Junior Member
Posts: 1
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-03-2001 10:58 AM
I have been trailering for several years now and have had no problems. My hull is 1/4" canoe strips and 2 layers of 1/8 cedar at 45 and then 90 degrees applied over the oak keel and ribs. I make sure that the boat is supported by its keel and that the side supports of the trailer are there to balance it. I sail in Cape Cod and the ramps here are not the best and subject to tremendous tidal fluctuations. I have never not been able to launch and retrieve. I think that a tongue extension may be a good idea at some time, but?????. I leave the sails on all the time and use some quick release clevis pins for the standing rigging so set up takes about 10 minutes with the gaff rig. The shorter main mast (sitka spruce)is easy to lift by myself. I made a short mast with a leather lined crotch to receive the mast/boom etc for trailering/storage purposes. The boat is finished with 6 oz fiberglass cloth and interthane "brightsides". I "locked" the sides of the hull, over the keel,inside the boat, with 15oz biaxial tape and have seen no seperation and I trailer 300 miles from my home in NJ to Cape Cod.

posted 11-07-2000 08:57 AM
Wondering what one does with a set of slightly used HAVEN 12-1/2 forms laid out for cold molded planking...Jack Frost

posted 11-08-2000 08:14 PM
Has anyone built the Haven with a lapstrake hull? I am interested in trailering but am not interested in the mess associated with coldmolding.

posted 11-28-2000 12:24 PM
I ordered a set of plans from Mystic Seaport for the Herreshoff they have on site. This 121/2, and I assume most Herreshoff originals ones are like this, called for a starboard vent plate and a vent plate located just behind (inboard side) the coamings intersection on the foreward deck. I didn't plan on putting one there, but after seeing these plans, I believe I will. This way I will be able to bolt the mast partner to the main bulk head beam rather than fastening with screws. I plan on using the solid mast partner rather than the hinged one. In addition to that, a lower vent plant on the starboard bulkhead wall and the upper one on the forward deck will probably allow much better ventilation. Whant do you think?

Roger F. Winiarski

posted 04-15-2001 04:50 PM
Dear Paul,
We have now participated in the building of over 50 Havens. We have not had one customer yet that sealed off the forward and aft compartments. They are too valuable for storage. I have sailed Herreshoff boats on Naragansett Bay for over thirty years in all kinds of weather. I have not seen a 12 1/2 go over yet. Unless you plan on sailing your boat in Hurricanes you will find the storage more useful than the flotation.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

frostja

posted 04-18-2001 09:02 AM
I too wondering where jib sheet cleat goes. Looks to me that from the block it runs right into the coaming.. Maybe a hole thru the coaming??? I don't think so...Jack Frost
PS Roger...need those sail attachments.J

posted 12-07-2000 05:11 PM
As a new member living in England U.K. Can any one tell me where I can purchase building plans many thanks Michael

Paul

posted 12-11-2000 07:57 AM
Wooden Boat has the plans for about $150.00. Try this link it should get you there. http://www.woodenboat.com/
Good luck on your project. Classic Boat did an article on the Haven 12 1/2 about a year ago. The builder made some modifications and used cold molded construction

posted 12-14-2000 08:04 PM
At Bristol Bronze we sell to most if not all of the professionals that build Haven 12 1/2s. If anyone is thinking of purchasing a professionaly built boat they should contact us at 401-625-5224. We should be able to offer advice as to lead times and which builder best suits the buyer's needs.

posted 12-14-2000 11:32 PM
I thought I'd throw this out for feedback:
How about this idea for an alternative building method.

1) Plank on frame with marine ply instead of solid wood.

2) Use 5200 at butt of planks, or use traditional soaked cotton method.

3) apply one thin layer of fiberglass cloth over hull to cover the end-grains of the plywood that will be exposed by contouring planks.

This will give one the experience of building a POF boat, and fiberglass covered plywood would eliminate most of the movement associated with any moisture absorption. Certainly the 5200 would accommodate any minor movement.

What do you think???

Paul

posted 01-02-2001 12:24 PM
Eric, I don't know if the ply would take the reverse curves. I am no expert, believe me, but I would be interested to hear what someone else has to say about that. Seems like I have heard of lapstrake Haven's. Don't know if these where ply or not.

posted 01-07-2001 05:57 PM
The site needs photos of finished Havens in the water sailing. Please send these and any Haven construction photos to:
Tom Strong
1747 Littlestone Rd.
Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
48236
Thanks,

Tom

posted 01-08-2001 04:58 PM
I would appreciate any advise on how to rig out my Haven. Placement of jamb cleats for the jib lines, any lessons learned. ANy info. would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

posted 04-15-2001 04:44 PM
Dear Paul,
The rigging is easy and pretty straight forward. Our rigger can make up all your standing to the original Herreshoff specifications. I can walk you through step by step on the running rigging. When you get a chance give me a call at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

posted 04-15-2001 04:58 PM
We at Bristol Bronze have now participated in the building of over 50 Havens. Some were ablolutely beautiful and some were slightly less so. Certain fittings, ie. the stem strap and the pintals must fit exactly the corresponding pieces of wood. We strongly recommend that the stem strap and the pintals be purchased before the associated wood is taken to its final size. It is much easier to finish the wood to fit the metal that the other way around.
Anyone with specific questions can reach us at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

0000018
Questioms from Ervin
Admin5
Webmaster
Posts: 495
Registered:

posted 05-17-2001 09:54 AM
I'm just gathering information before I begin my Haven 12 1/2. Have the plans, books. Can anyone tell me approximately: How many feet of 10 inch pine for the molds. How many feet of
cedar for the planking, decking etc. , also if the 1/2 inch planking finished both sides, flitch sawn will work for all the planking. Is there any backing out on the planking. I'v e been
quoted 3.65 bd foot for eastern white cedar, 5.00 for nothern
white cedar. Are these reasonable prices.
I would appreciate any information on amt. of materials.
Thanks
Ervin
Email: monttop@bellsouth.net
[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 05-17-2001).]

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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 05-21-2001 09:41 AM
Ervin, it's been a while since I did my molds and I can't remember nor did I write the board feet down. I wish I could help you there, but I can't. Perhaps one of the other Haven builders will be able to answer that question. I'll see if I can get you an answer. A fellow near me has just completed his molds and I believe he told me he is keeping a running list of materials, etc. As far as the planking stock, I don't think that you will be able to get by with finished 1/2" stock. Backing out and fairing the hull will not leave you with the full 1/2" specified on the plans. I would suggest you go with at least 5/8" or full 4/4 stock and plane to at least 5/8". Once you get to the turn of the bilge you will need a full 5/8" plank due to the backing out. I was fortunate enough to get some really good juniper (Atlantic White Cedar here in NC) in 16' lengths (actually about 16'-6"). If you can get full 16' lengths and the ends are not checked or split, you shouldn't have to do any scarphing at all for your planking needs. The sheerstrakes will need to be longer however. You can get by with more narrow widths at the garboards and few planks up (say 4"-6") but you will need 8"-10" planks from then on out. I couldn't get flitch sawn boards, so I wasn't able to take advantage of any natural curve or sweep in the plank. If you can get the full 16' lengths, you can plan on about 20 pieces for the planking. But, you will also need it for the floor and aft deck. Good luck with your project.
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tborah
Builder
Posts: 29
Registered: May 2001

posted 05-22-2001 04:28 PM
I am just finishing my molds, and I am keeping track of the materials. I have used the following: 230 linear feet of 10" wide 5/4 stock planed to 7/8" for the molds; 140 linear feet of 10" wide 4/4 stock for bilge ties, keel ties; 120 linear feet of 1x4 and 40 linear feet of 1x6 for cross spalls, centerboard slot, and miscellaneous uses. Throw in several hundred drywall screws and a pair of sturdy kneepads and you've got about all you need!
I hope this helps. Good luck.

0000019
lumber
tborah

posted 06-01-2001 11:18 AM
I am a first-time boat builder attempting the 12-1/2, so I am trying to learn lots of things on the fly. I have questions regarding lumber. From what I can gather, air-dried lumber is preferable to kiln-dried in general. However, are there parts of the boat (I am thinking stem, keel, transom, floor timbers) where kiln-dried wood is fine? e.g. the instructions talk about using "dry" and "fairly seasoned" stock for the transom and floor timbers respectively. I understand that I will need to find some nice, green wood for the frames, but I have much easier access to kiln-dried lumber (approx. 8% moisture content) if I am not asking for trouble by using it. I want to do this right, so any advice is appreciated - Thanks in advance.
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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 06-05-2001 05:02 PM
I would try to go with air dried white oak rather than kiln dried. You will experience less breakage while steam bending your frames. The keel does not require a lot of bending, however if you use kiln dried lumber you end up with a large piece of oak that is going to undergo a lot of change once it does get wet. I don't think your stem should give you much trouble if it was kiln dried. You can also laminate it in one piece. I don't think you will be too successful in finding air dried mahogany. Kiln dried mahogany doesn't undergo the changes kiln white oak does. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

0000020
BUILDING FORMS
frostja

posted 06-10-2001 12:57 PM
Have one set Haven 12-1/2 forms (cold molded version) and one set ELLEN (12' sailing dinghy) forms FREE to whoever may want them. Located Frankfort, Mi. Jac

0000021
NC lumber/suppliers
jamesferguson

posted 06-29-2001 09:24 PM
Great to see a website/forum for this boat!!! I am just starting the planning for this project and am looking for a lumber supplier here in North Carolina. Any recommendations out there for lumber and/or other suppliers in this neck of the woods? Thanks a bunch!
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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-02-2001 10:12 AM
Welcome to the joys of building a Haven! Building one is a challenge but well worth the effort! A great place for wood supplies is.....can't think of the name....but it is advertised in the back of WB magazine under wood supplies. It is located in Wilmington and is easy access off of I40. I am completing mine for a launch either this month or the first of August. There is also another boatbuilder near Wake Forest building a Haven.
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jamesferguson
Moderator
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Registered:

posted 07-06-2001 08:07 AM
Thanks for the info! Glad to hear there are some local builders that can offer advice. We newbies really appreciate it. The place in Wilmington is called Anchor, and they quoted $3 per bd ft for atlantic white cedar. Another question regarding lumber: I have noticed that eastern white pine is approx. $1 per bd ft in our area. The Landing School in Maine has Havens for sale that they have built out of "eastern white pine or cedar planking over oak". Anyone have any first hand experience with white pine or knowledge regaring this material for planking. Always interested in saving a buck (or two per bd foot)! That would be a significant cost savings, but don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish.
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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-06-2001 08:25 AM
James, I don't know if the eastern white pine is the same stuff we have available here. I don't have my reference with me on woods, but one of the boat building books will tell you more about the wood properties. The cedar may cost a little more but this is a boat that will last a lifetime and then some. I wouldn't skimp on the product or cut corners unless it's the same stuff at a better price. Plus, you will absolutely enjoy working with the juniper. It works great and smells good too! Have you started your molds yet? Its going to take about 320LF 1X10 and 200LF of 1X6. The boatbuilder in Wake Forest furnished this info. I didn't keep up with the quantities of material. But I did and am keeping a builders log. Good luck with your project.
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jamesferguson
Moderator
Posts:
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posted 07-06-2001 10:01 AM
Thanks for the info. I have read differing opinions on the white pine as far as planking is concerned. I think what we can get here is the same material, but I'll have to check. There is a place out in Mayodan NC that I have bought some white pine before for another project (not boat related), and it was really nice. However, I am kind of thinking the same thing as you are on the pine vs cedar...and the hull is not really the place to skimp. Someone mentioned a place out in Columbia, NC for cedar. Any idea what they charge for their cedar? I am currently in serious study mode for the project. Like most things, I am obsessed with this project now and have been trying to read everything I can get my hands on to prepare for the actual work, and to locate where I can get necessary supplies. I commend you on the ability to keep a log...I will be hard pressed to make myself keep a log of anything...not in my nature. Cheers!
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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 07-09-2001 01:22 PM
I found this information on white pine. Looks like it has all the attributes you would look for in boatbuilding except the durability is listed as poor.
Botanical Name:
Pinus strobus

Other Names:
Eastern White Pine, Soft Pine, Balsam Pine, Canadian White Pine.

Natural Characteristics: Straight grain, soft surface which is prone to scratches and denting.

Color:
Light yellow to a reddish brown (in heartwood).

Workability: Good

Poor bending properties.
Finishing
Qualities: Good

Accepts finishes well. Finishes sometimes are blotchy (see "spitcoat").
Durability: Poor

White pine tends to be very soft. This may make it unsuitable for some furniture applications.
Uses:
Furniture, moldings, plywood, boat building, carpentry, veneer.

Comments:
White Pine is one of the most common woods. It was very popular during the Colonial Period. Most first growth White Pine was cut down long ago. Second growth trees are beginning to mature. White Pine is very common and is available at most "home centers".
Price: Inexpensive

0000022
Havens near Seattle?
iantaylor
Valued Junior Member
Posts: 2
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-06-2001 12:08 PM
I see Spokane mentioned.
Anyone know of a Haven closer to Seattle that I could take a look at?
Ian

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Don M
Builder
Posts: 3
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-02-2001 09:37 PM
While not the Haven, http://www.cwb.org/ Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle has a Herreshoff 12 1/2 in their livery of rental sailboats.

0000023
Lapstrake Haven
RocheMB
Valued Junior Member
Posts: 1
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-23-2001 06:16 PM
This question has been asked a few times before but I have not seen a definitive answer. Is the Haven hull shape compatible with traditional lapstrake construction? Comments are appreciated.

0000024
Building materials
Admin5
Webmaster
Posts: 495
Registered:

posted 08-02-2001 08:53 PM
For a good discussion of building materials, kiln dried vs. air died, etc. go to Woodenboat Forum page:
http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002747.html
(This link no longer works)

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 04-05-2006).]

posted 08-19-2001 01:15 PM
Don McConnell's Haven 12 1/2 Bien Venido launched in July, 2001. See his site at:
http://home.swbell.net/dmcconnl/hvncontents.htm
(Link no longer works)

posted 09-04-2001 06:32 AM
I'll be buying a planer soon. Will one of the twelve inch portables do for frames, planks, etc. or should I spring for the more expensive floor models? Thanks.
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Jack
Builder
Posts: 141
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 09-15-2001 09:01 PM
I have a DeWalt 12 1/2 inch model planer and it has up to this point been all that I have needed. If as you buy material and for one reason or another its wider than this then you can usually get the supplier to plane it for you. No use wasting money on big planers when the BOAT is in need of many bronze fittings etc.

posted 09-18-2001 03:29 AM
Here is an attracting link to the Finnish
Carvel Yacht web site containing Buzzards Bay 14, Haven 12 1/2 and other pictures: http://personal.inet.fi/business/veistamo.jheikkila/
I just received an offer for my Haven sails:
Jib + Main 830 EURO (= 770 USD) inc. local taxes.

Seppo

posted 09-18-2001 05:08 PM
After 3years and 8months I finally launched my Haven 121/2. It is quite the boat. I can't take it anywhere that people don't stop and admire the beautiful lines.....all attributed to Joel White and Capt. Nat. She floated right on her water line and she sails and handles beautifully. I highly recommend the Triade trailer for this boat. The tongue can be extended and it is custom built for this boat. The trailer pulls very easily and I really can't find any faults after three ramp launchings.

posted 09-26-2001 02:11 PM
Here is a link to a good discussion of Gaff Rig sails: http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003136.html
(Link no longer active)

posted 10-25-2001 01:44 PM
It appears I like to be different, so I had initially intended to trim my Haven in white oak. However, I have become concerned lately about how well a white oak transom might hold up. Not too concerned about the other trim peices, but the transom brings up such questions as what glue (epoxy or resorcinol), splines or biscuits, drifts or no, and will it stay together in and out of the water???? I fear that I may have to join the crowd and go with HMahog (don't get me wrong, the HMahog trim is super primo good looking...just wanted to do something slightly different).
I have been following with interest a few posts on Woodenboat forum, but nothing specific about white oak transoms. Anyone out there trimmed their Haven in white oak and with what results?

Also, has anyone had success or failure with a white oak transom, period. I was planning on using air-dried oak (I have seen Paul's results with kiln dried...not the success story I'd hoped for).

Would it require quarter-sawn white oak and if so, would this need to be air-dried or would kiln be ok? I've got a good stack of air-dried oak, but I'll be hard pressed to find enough quarter sawn to get out the transom...plus it is hard to find the stuff not kiln dried.

Anyone out there? Let's get some Haven discussion going...

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 10-26-2001 08:03 AM
Dear Jim,
I think that you will be all right with an oak transome. We here at Bristol Bronze have participated in the building of over 100 Havens. I seen all sorts of combinations. It was the practice at Herreshoff Mfg. to give the customer a choice of white oak or butternut for the transome. If possible you should probably use quarter sawn air dried material.

The first 12 1/2's used a 5/8" thick transome with vertical wooden stiffeners on the inside. After the first year they changed to a 7/8" thick transome and eliminated the vertical stiffeners. I do recommend Bronze drift pins. If you wish we have three pages of original Herreshoff plans available.

To prevent separation of the cockpit coamings from the transome I also recommend that you use the Bronze coaming brackets between the coamings and the transome.

If you have any questions I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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tborah
Builder
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posted 10-30-2001 04:29 PM
I can't help on your question re: white oak for the transom, but I agree with your plea to "get some Haven discussion going". It seems as though this site is getting a little more activity recently, but it would be great to see some good, continuous discussion. Since I, too, am working on the transom, I figured I would just jump in.
Call me boring, but I am going with the H.Mahog. I am currently drilling holes for the drift bolts; I feel like I have a good handle on the whole process for the transom, but any words of wisdom would be appreciated. Any views out there on use of epoxy vs. something else? Any common pitfalls I should know about.

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Admin5
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posted 10-30-2001 06:15 PM
As administrator of this site, I too would like to see more active discussion. Perhaps the problem is that there are too many threads, and it's too cumbersome. Maybe we should encourage everyone to use this one "General Discussion" thread. Useful information could then be transferred to the other appropriate threads. There are MANY Haven builders who contribute to the WoodenBoat Forum but ignore this one. Any ideas on how we can get this forum going are most welcome!
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tborah
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posted 10-31-2001 02:37 PM
re: more discussion
It sounds like you are thinking of organizing this site more like the WB Forum(?) I think that might be a good idea. Maybe people feel constrained to stay within the specific topics listed on the first page of the Haven Forum; making the front page more wide open like the WB Forum might help. I guess putting all initial postings in the "General Discussion" accomplishes the same thing.
Let's get this forum going! I am still early in the building process, I know I will have lots more questions, and I need all the help I can get!

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Jack
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posted 11-01-2001 01:26 AM
I absolutely agree that this site should get going in a manner like the Wooden Boat Forum but without all the Miscellaneous non-boat connected jibberish. I come to this site to learn from others and hopefully to help others if possible with their trials and tribulations of building a Haven 12 1/2. I've been at it so long I'm in some respects ashamed to be so slow; and yet I'M progressing and feeling more accomplishment all the time.To me the gallery idea sounds good. If all the people either building now ' finished building or contemplating building would sign on-identify their status then perhaps we could develop a roster and as we needed help we would know where to go for help-discuss mutual problems , whatever. I know that the more pictures one can look at of the building process the better one can understand or appreciate what someone is discussing.. I will shortly be submitting some more of my work, as a source of help for others. Well enough for the moment, but I hope others will respond and as you say may the discussions get more "LIVELY" and hopefully more people will participate here. Jack
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tborah
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posted 11-01-2001 04:52 PM
Good idea about having people introduce themselves. I guess I'll go first.
I am a fairly experienced woodworker attempting my first boat. I originally planned on a simpler boat for my introduction to boatbuilding, but I figured what the heck, why not bite off more than I can chew, and learn a lot in the process. I have built all the molds, and I am currently working on the transom. I am able to devote only a few hours each weekend, so this is a LONG term project. But I love it. As a first-time boatbuilder, I have lots of questions, but I have thoroughly enjoyed the learning process as well as the building.

I have a question regarding epoxy, but I will post it under a new topic within "General Discussion". All input is appreciated.

Who's next?

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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-01-2001 04:54 PM
Definitely do away with all the categories. One category: Building.
As for the transom, edge drilling from each edge to the middle is straightforward using a guide clamped to the edge (with some practice). I got too confident on my last bore and busted out the edge of a plank. Assembly was a titanic, gooey, slippery struggle with a mallet, pipe clamps and epoxy everywhere! (Make sure those blind holes are deep enough and make sure the kids won't be around during assembly). Once it drys, take the whole mess to a cabinet maker with a giant thickness sander to smooth both sides. They should charge $20 - $40, you'll be very happy with the results and you'll have saved much labor. Beveling the edges goes well with a block plane, spokeshave and scraper. Remember: the book says not to finish the bevel where it meets the keel until the keel is in place. I haven't planked yet, but it seems to me I'll need to modify the transom bevel considerably on the inside face at the shear if the shearstrakes are going to lie flush. My impression so far is that even though the book and plans are very good, this is not a paint by numbers project. I've learned to trust my own judgment if a minor plan error is evident. For example, I had to significantly modify the stem molds to get the planks to land in the rabbit. I checked the drawings and my molds 50 times and lost sleep until I realized I simply had to make the alteration.

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Don M
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posted 11-02-2001 09:21 PM
Bill, I remember having to also do a lot of work shaving and trimming the hollowed bow frames near the stem to get the battens to land nicely into the rabbet. You are right, this is no paint by number and your judgement, if you've reached this stage should begin to guide you pretty well. Sometimes it is good to "sleep on it" to think it through before preceeding. I also remember that fairing the molds was a bit of "art" since sometimes adjusting a little bit off of a frame two frames away sometimes brought the batten at the location of interest to bear closer. I found that it paid not to shave off too much in any one place at a time.
One the transom glueing subject... yes get the kids away so they don't hear you cursing when the damn thing doesn't want to draw up and it seems like you're going to create a big 100 dollar expoxied screw-up on top of all the time you lovingly spent. Once you commit the epoxy into the holes and on the bronze drifts and along the board edges, you better have plenty of bar clamps handy and start drawing it up and don't stop to chat with the neighbors. Yes, good advice on making sure the holes are deep enough. In hindsight I think it might be a good idea to bevel or relieve any sharp cut edges on the rod ends to prevent them from digging in to the sides of the holes. I think I also remember clamping a couple of twoxfour strong backs onto the work to make sure all layed flat until the epoxy set up.

posted 10-30-2001 08:13 PM
Posting Photos
Do you have the photos on your computer or a disk? If so, go to http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=16165 and sign up. download (or is it upload?) your pictures into an album there. Then, once you have them loaded you can either paste a link to the
album in a message here or paste the photo here. To paste a photo here right click on it and select "copy link". In your message type [img]then paste the link to your photo and then type [/img]. Make sure you leave no spaces between the bracketed imgs and the link. If you need more help or want to see what it really looks like go to a thread that has pictures and right click, select "view source" and you'll see how it works.

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 08-09-2004).]

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Admin5
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posted 08-09-2004 05:07 PM
I brought this thread to the top for William Fisher who emailed me:
Tom,

Attached are two files, a .bmp outline of the US and a Word doc, that I have been playing with to support a possible Haven Builders meeting. I thought it would be helpful to show the location of builders on a map (it is for me anyhow) to determine if there is a spot that is the most convenient to the biggest number of builders.

I have placed some builders on the map but do not have locations for all of them. I don't know what to do with builders from other countries yet but I need to include them somehow. I would like to ask builders to give their state and town to finish off the map.

It occurs to me that you might like to include the map in the Haven Builders site, if so please feel free to use it as you like (I will update the map if and when we get additional state and towns).

Is there a way for me to post the map myself or does a bmp/jpeg have to go through you? If there is a way for me to post would you post the method? Is this a situation that you would prefer to go through you before posting?

Bill.

See list at:
http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/fisher/Builders.htm

and email your location to: William.Fisher@asml.com

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 08-09-2004).]

posted 11-01-2001 07:53 AM
Questions on frame bending...what are you folks using to hold the oak to the forms after steaming? I have had no problem at all with the bending, but haven't had great results with the draw dogs shown in the book. I have also tried using the plastic ties, but they seem to want to stretch just a little and are difficult to get tight enough. Maybe I'm just not doing either one correctly, so any ideas would be appreciated since I still have about half of them left to be done.
Also, what are you guys priming your bent frames with after they are done...something as exotic as red lead or other more common product?

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Admin5
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posted 11-01-2001 09:55 AM
Here is a photo from Jack O'Leary, showing shims or wedges under the plastic ties to tighten them up: http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/frames1.jpg
As for treating the frames, I read a lot about CPES on the WB Forum, but have no personal experience with it.

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-23-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-23-2007).]
[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-20-2012).]

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Jack
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posted 11-02-2001 12:13 AM
Amazing what one can see in a picture . I didn't think those little wedges would show up or be important to someone else. And yet I'm one who always scans pictures for answers to questions. Yes, thats what I did to keep the frames relatively tight to the molds. Initially I used clamps that clamp to the side of the mold and then a screw on the same clamp tightens down to hold the frame. I left them there for 2-3 days . I also used regular hand clamps where possible to hold the frames. I tried the draw dogs and found them to dent the frames as well as not hold them tightas I would like so I gave up on them. The nylon tie strips worked quite well although they too left dents to I started slipping little strips of plywood under them which tightened them up and also prevented the dents. Over time I have found some of the frames to have left their moldand created a little space. No problem though in planking the frames are pulled up to the plank. Sometimes the wedges at the bottom of the mold holding the frame in place come loose and the frame can rise up off the mold so you wedge it back down. I painted all my frames with linseed oil as I applied them to the molds. Now in the planking process I have been using red lead on the frame before I attach the plank. Jack
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Paul
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posted 11-05-2001 07:49 AM
I predrilled the frame and used sheetrock screws. I installed a washer on the screw to keep it from splitting the frame. It only takes two screws per frame, max and you can fill the hole with epoxy when you remove the screw for hanging the plank.
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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-05-2001 03:44 PM
Cable ties every 6 - 8 inches worked well for me without wedges or shims. I did use a sliding bar clamp to get the reverse curve set but the clamps could come off after a few minutes of cooling. The ties have held the frames nicely for several months now. As you know, the curves get more severe as you proceed aft so if you encounter any breakage, as I did starting at mold #7, here's some advice: When the breaks occured, we decided to cook 'em a bit longer (50 minutes total), I pushed on ‘em a little more carefully (the frame tells you when its ready to bend more - total time to bend about 30 seconds) and added an aluminum strap to the outside to induce more compression since they tend to fail in tension on the outside more than in compression on the inside of the curve. The strap was temporarily wedged in with the frame and clamped up top before bending..then removed after the bend set for a few seconds. Go slow and don't twist 'em. As far as priming: I'm painting everything with CPES.
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jamesferguson
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posted 11-09-2001 08:06 AM
I have heard alot about the CPES products but have not seen them offered anywhere. Who are some of the makers of this product, who makes the preferred version of the product, and where do you get the stuff?
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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-16-2001 05:24 PM
CPES is manufactured by Smith's in California. You can order it by phone at 510 237-6842. He also has a very good product info sheet and is very helpful in person. There's LOTS of discussion about this on Wooden Boat's forum. Basically is come down to this: It doesn't seal out water, it slows migration AND (unlike solid films like epoxy or paint) doesn't crack when struck because its part of the wood. Of course a boat must be painted as well, however, I see CPES as the second line of defense when the solid film is cracked or scratched. Also, I believe claims that it assists in providing a chemical bond to the surface coat if the surface coat is applied within a few hours after CPES application. Do give it a chance to off gas before applying paint...its mostly solvents. You'll need a respirator if you apply it inside or if you're applying it to large areas. I'm coating everything with it. 2 gallons = $93; 2 quarts = $31; 2 pints = $21. Later.
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jamesferguson
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posted 11-27-2001 08:43 AM
I got all of the frames done over the long Thanksgiving weekend and thought I'd give my take on what worked well and what did not. I milled a bunch of raw frames and soaked them for several days before use. All of my frames were milled to roughly the same length - approx. 53 inches or so. I sanded all of the hard edges a bit, and pre-marked them so I could easily tell the proper grain orientation when in the heat of battle. My steaming rig consists of an 8 foot wooden box made of cheap 1X10 pine with two lines of dowels which I use as shelves. A heater hose connects the box to a five gallon kerosene can (new), which sits on top of a cajun cooker. It took 30 minutes to get the water steaming, and it took me two four-hour sessions to get the frames completed. After some initial prior tests, I had better luck with my wood by steaming it a full hour. I put the wood into the steam box on a schedule of two every 10 minutes, and it took me about 5 minutes a piece to get the darn things secured onto the molds, so that schedule worked well. I chose to use Paul's trick of pre-drilling and using drywall screws to secure the frames onto molds, and it worked wonderfully. One trick that worked for me was to start aft and work forward...if a break occurred on one of the more severe bends aft, it seemed to always be fairly low on the mold, which left plenty of wood on the other side. I would immediately take the broken piece, flip it over, and could use it on one of the smaller frames toward the front of the boat. I broke quite a few on several of the aft molds (1 through 13 were cake), and realized two things...go slow...real slow, and make sure you check your wood for any imperfections or irregular grain before putting it in the steam box. Other notes that caused me grief...make sure you have enough fuel to continue to fire your steamer. I ran out of gas and ruined 4 or 5 frames that were still in the box. Also, check your water supply in your steamer...I ran out of water just as I was finishing up, and could have easily ruined my steamer can if I hadn't noticed in time. Organization is important as well...even more so if you are working on your own. The first session I had help, which was nice, but it is easily accomplished alone if organized. Steaming is fun...but glad it's done!
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Admin5
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posted 11-27-2001 10:41 AM
James...
Congratulations on completing framing! I hope you'll send some pictures for the site.
Tom

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Paul
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posted 11-27-2001 01:45 PM
Congratulations James, this is a big event and one that calls for a small celebration. You are right on track for reminding everyone to keep track of the water and the fuel. I remember when I was melting the lead down for my ballast pour, I had my wife run out and buy another fuel tank and fill it up. Just about the time she got back home with it, I was beginning to get low on fuel, so it was a wise decesion. Two tanks are better than one when it comes to stuff like this.

posted 11-01-2001 05:08 PM
I am a first-time boatbuilder who has never used epoxy. Please be gentle.
I am getting ready to glue up the transom. I have read through the West Systems product guide, and I have a couple of questions just to make sure I don't botch this. Do I need to use some type of filler, or is the epoxy + hardener sufficient? If I use the filler, it sounds like I put the epoxy + hardener in one pan, and the thickened potion in another. I then apply the unthickened mix to both edges, then the thickened mix to one edge, and clamp it up (??). Am I on the right track. Also, once I have the transom glued up, cut out and bevelled, at what point do I apply some sort of finish to one or both sides? What type of finish? I am using H.Mahog, and per the book, I am using the 1/4" bronze drift bolts. Any other words of advice??

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Jack
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posted 11-01-2001 11:47 PM
When I built my transom I essentially did it like the process described in the book "how to build the Haven 12 1/2 ". However I used two-part weldwood resorcinol glue. It seemed to work fine. I never put any fancy finish on it only a little linseed oil. If there is one thing I can think of that would be a definite help don't try to shape the transom to the pattern from the plans at this point. You probably have a rough shape or at least when you get it all glued up then cut out a rough shape and wait till your molds are all set up and the transom on its triangular holder to start thinking of the finished shape. You are going to have to fair the keel to the transom nad the molds are all faired to each other as well as the transom. It was during that process that I started to worry about the final shape of the transom. You will also be attaching the knee to the transom and keel which will require some bronze screws through the transom into the knee. I guess what i'm saying is that be careful in removing wood from the various members as its tougher to put back than remove. I too am a novice but I've passed this hurdle, seemingly successfully as you will. Carry on . I hope this helps. More questions email me. Jack
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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-02-2001 04:21 PM
You don't need to thicken epoxy for joints, only for filling holes or fairing, although you also don't want to clamp the joint overtight or the epoxy will squeeze out and the joint will fail. Please practice with epoxy before assembling the transom. Mix it very thoroughly in one container, transfer it to a new container and mix again. Test your technique before you apply it to something you've worked hard on like the transom planks. For finishing, seal both sides with CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer) and then two or three coats of varnish on each side. (First coat of varnish a few hours after the CPES). If the water barrier is insufficient on one side, that side will take up moisture from the air and the transom will warp - this happened to me when I set the transom on the bench unsealed for a few hours. It returned to flatness but it scared me. If you use linseed oil I'd be concerned about varnish adhesion afterwards. It'd probably be OK but that's why I chose CPES. Also, with a joint and with CPES this is not an issue, but if you ever varnish or paint or bond over an epoxied surface, wash the hardended epoxy surface with water first to remove the amine blush that migrates to the surface after curing. The blush is a greasy, water soluble substance that will interfere with any bond. You should wash the surface after the epoxy has been cured for several days.
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tborah
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posted 11-15-2001 05:09 PM
Thanks for the advice.
I processed all the good info, and glued up my transom boards the other day. I carefully drilled holes using a homemade guide, and aligned all the holes as best I could. I sanded over the ends of the bronze rods to avoid tearout, and triple-checked the hole depths to be sure I left an extra 1/4 to 1/2 inch for each of the 6 rods I used. I coated the rods with epoxy, and banged them through the holes. Then I epoxied every mating edge, coated one of two mating edges with thickened epoxy, and started hammering the rods home. I recruited my 13-year old son to help out which helped enormously; having the extra set of hands was a huge advantage, and I would recommend it highly. I used every clamp I own, and the whole mess pulled together easier than I feared it would. After ungluing, I brought it to the local hardwood dealer who fed it through a 36" thickness sander to smooth it and get it down to 7/8" (glued up boards were 5/4 H. Mahog). Now to cut it to rough size. Per peoples' advice, I will save the final bevelling until the planking gets underway.

Another small victory! Thank you for the advice.

posted 11-02-2001 02:48 PM
Here is an email with pictures I received from Roger Mullette. I hope Roger will join and participate in this forum!
Tom (Webmaster)

"I only found 1 or 2 photos taken during the construction "phase" 1992-1997. What can I say ??? 3 kids College and a wedding. I built the hull from 1/4" canoe strips running fore and aft and then 2 1/8" red cedar veneer at 45 and then 90 degrees. Tight as a drum and pretty inside.I sure wish that I knewof this forum when I went through the process!!!!!!!!!! It is a beautiful boat both from a visual and a sailing perspective. I would be happy to share my experience with anyone who may be interested. I am now starting on Ken Hankinsons' (boatdesigns.com) 24' cuddy cabin fisherman with high hopes of getting after those "blues" next summer. Roger Mullette"

.
.

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 11-02-2001).]

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Paul
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posted 11-05-2001 07:54 AM
Where did you get that outboard bracket for the transom?
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-07-2001 08:15 PM
For those that have not yet vistied our web site, Bristol Bronze make ALL the fittings that are necessary for the construction of the Haven 12 1/2 including the motor bracket. The majority of our fittings are EXACT duplicates of the fittings used by Herreshoff Mfg. on the original Herreshoff 12 1/2. We have found that if you do not use the authentic fittings the value of your boat is deminished by at least 1/3.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-08-2001 06:45 PM
How about 7/16 bronze hex bolts for the ballast keel? I've only found 1/2". Also I'd like to find blanks and cut the threads on site for 5/16 and 7/16".
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-08-2001 07:48 PM
7/16" Hex Bolts are not made in Bronze. The easiest alternative is to use 7/16" Rod. With a short bit of thread on one end and as much thread as you want or need on the other end you can have any length bolt that you want just by putting a nut on one end. At Bristol Bronze we stock a wide variety of Tobin Bronze rod (the alloy that was specified by Nat Herreshoff) as well as nuts and washers. If you have any questions I can be reached at 401-625-5224.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-08-2001 07:55 PM
To Roger Mullette,
I received your private e-mail about the motor bracket but will answer it in public because others may be interested.

The bracket was mever designed to be left on the transom with the motor on it while sailing. On the 12 1/2 the boom overhangs the stern. There is a real danger of having the slack mainsheet catch on the bracket or motor when you jibe the boat. I have had one customer lose his motor this way.

The motor bracket was designed to be used when not sailing. The motor and bracket are easily removed in only a few seconds and both should be stowed in the forward compartment or under one of the seats when sailing.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

posted 11-05-2001 08:31 AM
This is great to see.......some discussion going on this beautiful boat. I just finished my Haven this year and launched it late August and hope to send some pictures of the launch for posting in the next couple of days.
My Haven is trimmed in H. Mahogany and is carvel planked. I used western red cedar for the floor boards, its a good match for the mahogany. Planking is atlantic white cedar with oak structural members.
This is not a paint by numbers boat, as someone mentioned. It is a complicated boat to build, so thank goodness for the plans and the construction manual, but as others can attest, there is a lot of decisions and methods that you have to 'go figure' for yourself. I had problems with the molds near the hollow bow and understand from other builders that they have had similar problems. But each boat is a little different and unique, I guess that is what makes them so special. When I step back now and take in the hull on my boat, it is all moot.........she is absolutely beautiful.
I have met two Haven builders near me....this must be a record! James is just getting to bending on his frames and Dan is hanging his fourth plank and getting ready to do some backing out. Dan and I went sailing in my boat this past Friday....talking boats and having a good time. I wish I had had the opportunity of inspecting a finished Haven when I was building mine, but hopefully I can share what I can and make my mistakes known and thus help facilitate others.
I just got around to installing my oar lock sockets this past week end and came up with the following method.
The oar lock socket has to be 'let' into the coaming just a bit for a good flush fit. I used a length of cedar the same thickness as the coaming for a mock up. I then got out a piece of white oak to use as a drilling jig. I clamped the piece of white oak (maybe 1"x3"x5") to the coaming mock up. Using the oar lock socket as a marking pattern, I marked where the socket would fit into (or 'let into') the coaming. I then chucked a 1" fostner bit ( the same outside diameter of the oar lock socket), put the point on the center line I had just marked and proceeded to drill through both the oak block and cedar. I had to do this several times to get it just right, but when I was satisfied that the oar lock socket fit the coaming just right (after removing the oak drill jig) I proceeded to try it out on the varnished coamings on the boat. I mounted the oak jig on the coaming, after making sure all was lined up properly, and made the drill plunge. The oak drill jig sits a little proud of the coaming in order to give you a little starting room for the fostner bit. Since the oak jig is hollow and much harder than the mahogany coaming, the drill plunge is almost effortless. There you have it, a perfect tapered fit for the oar lock socket. The oar lock sockets are then fitted with machine screws to the coamings. Seems like I have seen backing plates on some original 12 1/2's.
But anyway, this installation was something I had been putting off. It's a big step to add to the coaming once they are on the boat, especially when there is some fitting involved. This worked for me and hopefully it will help someone elst when they are at his step.
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posted 11-05-2001 09:31 AM
Thanks Paul for this information. I look forward to posting your sailing pictures! I hope too that you'll send some photos of the oar lock installation you describe. A picture IS worth a thousand words! Perhaps you can convince Dan and James to join this forum and send pictures and descriptions of their progress. This system of using one thread, the "General Discussion" for all postings seems to be working well.
I've had some interest in adding a thread, and perhaps a whole new web site for Joel White's Flatfish. I would need someone to provide a good series of construction photos (as you and others have done for www.havenbuilders.com)in order to start a new site for the Flatfish.

Also, it looks like we may need a new sponsor for this site. Many thanks to Bristol Bronze for their sponsorship of this site for this first year. Roger has been a great help to many builders.

posted 11-05-2001 04:38 PM
Do you'all think it'd be OK to use kiln dried w. oak bedlogs instead of air dried? I heard KD yields big warping when the boat hits the water. Thanks, Bill
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Paul
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posted 11-06-2001 11:27 AM
Hey Bill. Thats a good question that will probably get a lot of discussion. The bedlogs are really large pieces of wood but they are securely fastened with through bolts for the floor timbers and lead ballast. Thus, I would think that would lend them to be got out of laminated or solid stock. Seems like I read that the floor timbers should be well dried air stock, so I would think the same for the belogs. As for me, I believe I used kiln dried stock that I had sitting around for about a year. I have not seen a problem thus far and I have had it in the water about eight times. I don't think you will get any warping but I suppose there is a lot of stress put on the through bolts. Seems like Herreshoff said you can't get your floor bolts too tight....so I'm content with the kiln dried for this application.
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posted 11-07-2001 02:10 PM
I too am interested in the bedlog topic. I actually got several pieces of air-dried oak in the required thickness for the bedlogs, thinking that this would be the way to go since they will be in contact with water on the rabbitted side in the centerboard trunk. After milling the wood, I noticed some very small checks in the face of one of the bedlogs. I immediately primed them with red lead. Not sure if this checking is common in thick air-dried stock (not having used air-dried before), but suspect it may be. After completing the trunk, now I am wondering if these small checks will cause me any problems down the road. The checks have not opened up any more, and are not visible now under the primed and painted surface, but now I'm wondering if the KD would have been better than the air-dried with small checks.
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posted 11-07-2001 04:56 PM
I don't think the checks should be much to worry about. I used a nice piece of air dried oak for my wood keel timber and at the end it started checking. I started coating it with linseed oil thinned with turpintine and then finally painted it with red lead, which probably what I should have done in the first place. But I like the way the linseed oil and turpintine smelled.
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posted 12-13-2001 05:57 PM
I wound up using kiln dried purple heart. The consensus among experts I spoke with was that KD is OK for P. Heart because it is very dimensionally stable but not for W. Oak. The P. Heart worked easily although I did shear a few screws off in it during test assembly. Once it was all slicked up with 5200 the screws went in easily (plus I used better screws from Roger for assembly). The trunk certainly isn't the most attractive feature of the boat but important.
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posted 12-18-2001 12:38 PM
Bill, I have to ask why the screws you got where any better than one could obtain from Jamestown, Hamilton or other sources?
Rather that using 5200 for a screw lubricant, I tried Rossel's suggestion of using wax from toliet bowl rings you can pick up from Home Depot or Lowes. You can get the wax, minus the plastic collar, and press it down into a can. That way you can just press your screws into the wax and they are ready to go. Works well and will probably facilitate removal, heaven forbid, when the time comes.
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Jack
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posted 12-18-2001 06:50 PM
Just in case you might have some cans of "Sno-Seal" around the house; a waterproofing wax for shoes and leather goods, use it for lubricating your screws. For years I used to mount bindings on snow skis and we used it exclusively and that was into metal' hardly ever broke a screw. The stuff may no longer be around but I'm sure there are other wax products for shoes and leather that would work too. I've still got my original can and have used the wax at times in overly hard oak frames.
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posted 12-18-2001 07:32 PM
I think I had a bad batch of screws. The heads sheared off too easily. From various conversations I've had, I've come to be concerned about the "pedigre" of fasteners. Apparently it can be a tricky process and quality control is important. I prefer to use screws made in the U.S. to some QC standard. This is not an area to save money I think. Regarding wax, I'm very cautious to not allow any wax into my shop for fear it'll contaminate some surface that will be painted or even worse..varnished. I read an article about varnishing that cautioned about wax and oils saying that even oil from hands can cause varnish to not adhere to wood. As tempting as it is to run your hand over a smoothed surface, don't even touch the wood after sanding before varnishing to avoid leaving a residue. Is this paranoid? Maybe...but, I'm way over my head on this project so if I get advice that makes some sense and it won't hurt then I'll take it! No wax for me thanks. I think boiled linseed oil or something else that hardens would be better.
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Dan Nielsen
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posted 12-19-2001 09:00 AM
I recall reading in WoodenBoat's book on painting and varnishing a suggestion to use red lead as the screw lubricant. They said it makes a mess, but offers protection to the wood exposed by the screw hole. Of course I read this after I had installed all my cedar planking. I used dish washing soap as my plank fastening screw lubricant. This most assuredly will offend somebody out there, but it is water over the dam now. I installed all my screws by hand and still managed to shear off several screws (most before I used the soap and was trying to lubricate with a light cutting oil)even though I am a little guy. After the first hundred screws or so, you start to get a feel for a screw that is about to give it up. Backing the offending screw out and trying a new one will usually lead to success.
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posted 12-19-2001 08:31 PM
Before starting my own business making Bronze marine fittings I worked for many years as a sales engineer for several of the major brass and copper mills. One of the products that I have literaly sold millions of pounds of is "Cold Heading Wire". (Wood screws and many other types of fasteners are made by an interesting pricess called cold heading.)
To form the proper head on a screw and to roll the thread properly the temper of the wire has to be very precise. Keeping the wire at this precise temper is one of the most demanding aspects of making cold heading wire. Foreign mills do not have the quality control of the domestic suppliers and therefore tempers can vary widely. At times this will make itself aparent in the cold heading process itself and at others times not until the screw is being driven into the wood.

Domestic cold heading wire is more expensive to use but usually you will end up saving in the long run. You won't have to waste time digging out broken screws.

The lubricant that is frequently used in the cold heading process is oxilate or soap. It is used to lubricate the wire in the die. My neighbor is a master boatbuilder. I have seen him frequently rub the threads of a screw on a bar of Ivory soap before turning it into a piece of hard wood. The soap lubricates the screw and disolves in the water later.

I am sure that just about every boat builder has his own favorite method. If the method works and there are no chemicals in the lubricant to harm the wood, then fine. I know one builder who used Olive Oil. He admits it works best on boats of Italian design.

If anyone would like a more in depth explination of cold heading or to know which is the best alloy of Bronze (never use brass) to use for screws in boats I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

posted 11-08-2001 08:05 PM
I have gone to quite a bit of effort but now have three very detailed original plans from Herreshoff Mfg. Company for the 12 1/2. Even Eric Dow admits that the WB plans leave something to be desired in certain areas. The Herreshoff plans are very detailed concerning the mast, boom, jib boom, and gaff for the gaff rigged version. Since this is the version that most people build it should be of interest in many builders.
We have copies of the plans available for sale here at Bristol Bronze. Anyone that would like a set can call me at 401-625-5224 to place an order.

Roger W.

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ericvsailing
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posted 07-12-2004 10:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Roger F. Winiarski:
I have gone to quite a bit of effort but now have three very detailed original plans from Herreshoff Mfg. Company for the 12 1/2. Even Eric Dow admits that the WB plans leave something to be desired in certain areas. The Herreshoff plans are very detailed concerning the mast, boom, jib boom, and gaff for the gaff rigged version. Since this is the version that most people build it should be of interest in many builders.
We have copies of the plans available for sale here at Bristol Bronze. Anyone that would like a set can call me at 401-625-5224 to place an order.

posted 11-09-2001 08:13 AM
Making up your bolts with round bronze stock is the way to go. It involves a little more work but it is worth the effort. You can thread one end and install a nut and then peen over the end. The other end can be threaded with the proper amount of threads for fastening your other nut and washer. It also gives you the opportunity to have a purchase on each end to really tighten the bolts.
This may be of interest to some when they get ready to mount their lead ballast. Once I was sure I had my lead ballast positioned and fitted as good as it could possibly get, I dropped it down just enough to install the bedding compound and jacked it back into place. (I used a two ton floor jack to lower and raise the 600lb lead ballast while I was doing the fitting.) I then drilled for the lead ballast thru bolts. Rather than removing the ballast and counter sinking the through holes, working from the bottom, I installed oak dowels in the through hole locations. Using a fostner bit I coutersunk the holes. This method worked well for me and it has the advantage of not having to realign everything back up if you remove it after drilling the initial hole. It is cumbersome but not that difficult to accomplish.
Also, you may want to wait until you have your boat completed and get your keel timber profile from your as built boat to make the lead ballast mold. I did this and it required very little fitting in the way of the lead ballast. When I compared mine to the plans there was some variance.
Also as a point of conversation, the study plans in the construction book, show different lead keel bolt locations than do the construction plans. The lead weight cut out dimensions for the centerboard are also specified differently in the construction book vs the construciton plans. No big deal but thought it worth mentioning.
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posted 11-09-2001 04:56 PM
Great advice. Thanks! I've taken to looking at both versions (book and plans) and deciding which looks best (e.g. floor timber #16 should obviously be 1-1/8" instead of 7/8"). Where did you get the bronze stock and what about the 5/16" carriage bolts? Did you make these as well in the same way?
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posted 11-09-2001 07:38 PM
For anyone that has difficulty in getting bolts, we here at Bristol Bronze can provide Carriage Bolts in up to 1/2" Dia up to 12" long. We can also provide Bronze Rod in any size that you need.
The alloy of choice at Herreshoff Mfg. for things such as keel bolts was Tobin Bronze. My own boat in now 81 years old, still has her original Herreshoff keel bolts and is still going strong. We usually keep a good supply of Tobin Bronze on hand.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Paul
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posted 11-13-2001 09:55 AM
Hi Bill, I agree with you on the floor timber sizes. I also believe it would be a good idea to increase the floor thickness of floor number 7 (at the bulkhead). This floor timber has the bulkhead planking as well as the keel timber through bolts. If you aren't very precise in the through bolt locations, you will not end up with enough floor timber for the bulkhead planks. Of course you can work around it, but having more 'landing area' would certainly help. I don't think adding some additional floor timber thickness will adversely affect anything. I ordered most of my standard carriage bolts from either Jamestown Distributors or Hamilton Marine. I made up all the lead ballast bolts from round stock. You might want to go ahead and order a couple of dies as well for the correct size threads. The die sizes for the larger bolts in the lead keel aren't available as individual units from any source I could find locally, so I ordered those as well. Fuller is a good source of the dies.

posted 11-09-2001 11:47 AM
One of the good things (or bad depending on your point of view) about building the Haven is that there is no shortage of tasks you can jump around to, especially when waiting for material delivery, when you have limited time, etc. I had recently jumped to working on the tiller. I initally thought I could easily shape this on the lathe and then steam bend it to the desired curve. Well, the distance between centers on my lathe was about 3 inches too short...time to improvise yet again. Having built a shaving bench several years ago for doing some chair making, I made fairly quick work of the white oak blank using a draw knife and spokeshaves. The egg-shaped end was a bit of a challenge (and I used alot of sandpaper), but it turned out pretty nice. Not having any real experience with applying varnish or having any on hand, I went out to the local builders enormo-store to buy a small can of varnish to coat the new tiller with. The stuff I got is supposedly some kind of "spar" varnish-urethane mix with uv protection, etc. I found this stuff to be really difficult to get on smooth, and I've ended up sanding most of it off. Finally to my question...what products are you guys using for varnishing the trim, and are there any good resources out there on how to put on varnish properly, as finishing 'aint my specialty. Also, are there any good new products that are worth considering as varnish alternatives. I have seen the Ephifanes ads for sanding-free varnishes, etc.
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posted 11-09-2001 04:39 PM
It is a joy to work a sharp spokeshave on a clear piece of wood. I'm glad you gave up on the lathe. Regarding finish: I've used Interlux varnish products with success (albeit with intervening "learning" experiences). Couple of golden rules:
1. Varnish in the morning out of the sun on warm days so it doesn't dry too fast while your brushing. This also seems to minimize bug landings which seem to happen more at night (at least here in CA).
2. Use a good brush that won't shed bristles.
3. Apply very thin coats (one each day for a week). Thin is very important to prevent running. Brush it out well so there's no thick sections. Take your time. You'll be filling the grain during the first 3 to 5 coats. Then put two coats over that.
4. Before applying the next coat, sand using a sanding block to slightly abraid the surface. Varnish doesn't bond chemically with previous coats..only mechanically. Wipe the dust off with a solvent and a tack cloth. Do not use a terry cloth rag, or sock or any other material. These leave particulates that will stand out during the next coat. The sanding block (a flat block of hardwood) is VERY important to lower the high spots and achieve a flat surface although even the low spots should be abraided slightly. Be careful you don't take too much off at the edges.
5. Read the directions and do a test piece.
6. There is a zen to this. You can not be in a hurry. Have fun.

posted 11-09-2001 05:32 PM
I started this thread to centralize information about variations from the plans discovered by builders first hand. Here are a couple of quotes to get things started:

...the study plans in the construction book, show different lead keel bolt locations than do the construction plans. The lead weight cut out dimensions for the centerboard are also specified differently in the construction book vs the construciton plans. No big deal but thought it worth mentioning.... Paul 11/9/01

I've taken to looking at both versions (book and plans) and deciding which looks best (e.g. floor timber #16 should obviously be 1-1/8" instead of 7/8").... Bill Sterling 1/9/01

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 11-09-2001).]

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-09-2001 07:42 PM
Eric Dow, who has built over 30 Havens fees that the WB plans leave something to be desired. For those that are interested we here at Bristol Bronze have three pages of ogiginal Herreshoff Mfg. Co. plans for the
12 1/2. These pages can be purchased by calling me at 401-625-5224.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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posted 11-10-2001 07:01 PM
Here are some more previous posts on this subject:

Help!!! If I set up molds 1, 2, and 3 according to the plans the planks will not come to lie in the stem rabbit! I have checked and rechecked my molds, the stem and the setup. I have bent on all frames (13/16" square), set the molds up with 7.5" between station faces, installed the first four frame timbers, set up the stem on the proper construction baseline, measured and re-measured the floor timber heights, marked the station faces on the stem as indicated on the drawings, braced the molds at 90 degrees to the construction base board and (if I continue without significant modificaiton) the planks will still land almost 1/2" above the bearding line!!! Is there an error in the mold design? Has anyone else encountered this?..........Bill Sterling posted 08-08-2001

Hey Bill. I haven't heard of anyone building the Haven having problems with these frames. Now frame #10 is a different story. This is the area of the bedlogs where the height above the construction base line has to be right. It's been several years since I planked my boat but this is what I remember. I don't recall marking planking stations on the stem, but I will go back and look at the drawings. This is what I remember though......Planking dimensions where give for various station numbers. I laid these out and used a true batten to mark all the frames after getting a fair line. This line carried over to the stem. The foremost plank ends had to be pressed down into the rabbet. The hood ends where spiled to get the correct shape and then fine cut as the plank was fitted into the rabbet. I can't picture in my mind exactly what you are talking about. If you have faired all the molds and frames, have the construction base level fore and aft, set the frames at 90 degrees to the construction base and are holding the top of the floor timber according to the spec's given, I can't understand why there is a problem. Maybe you can give us some more details or post a picture..... Paul posted 08-09-2001

The issue is worst for frame #2. Grab some paper and draw the stem in cross section pointing up. The stem is 1.75" wide and at station 2 the bearding line of the rabbit starts 1.25" from the bottom of the stem in cross section (I get 1.25" from the full scale stem plans along the #2 station face). OK...the width of the mold where it sits under the stem is shown on the full scale mold plans to be about 2.25" (1.125" from centerline to mold edge). If you draw a line from the upper edge of the mold (where it lies just under and slightly out from the bottom edge of the stem cross section) down and out at the mold angle (about 20 degrees?) and then add the frame thickness to this (13/16) and then project where the inside of the plank will fall on the stem (draw line upward from outside of frame), you'll see it lands almost 0.5" out of the rabbit! Sorry I don't have a picture. I'm about ready to just take the mold apart and modify it so it'll fit. If I shave down the frame it'll be only 3/8" thick at the stem...that's no good. I expect to shave some but not more than half the frame! Thanks big time for your help. I've been pondering this for months as I set up and built various components and I'll soon go mad!.....Bill Sterling posted 08-09-2001

Bill, I will try to look at the plans tonight and see if I can follow what you are saying. Don't get frustrated! I fussed with that frame #10 for days until I did just like it said in the book. Hold the fore and aft heights above the construction base, shim as necessary (or something like that). I can tell you there will be more instances like this and you will have to decide when and where you want to make your judgement calls. Keep in mind that there is another set of frames that will be added after the planking hung and you have her right side up......Paul posted 08-09-2001

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posted 11-16-2001 05:10 PM
I did wind up modifying molds 1 - 3 so the planks would land in the rabbit. Since then I've noticed that the transom bevel will need some additional wood removed toward the inside of the bevel if the shear plank is to lie flush. I've also heard you should leave the stem bevel proud to receive the stem band width and that its best to make your ballast mold from a template taken directly from the keel to avoid additional milling of the ballast. That's all I know of for now!! I've nothing at all against the plans or book...its just important to note that you have to think for yourself. In the recent book entitled "Wooden Boats", the author refers to the concept of "workmanship of risk" vs. "workmanship of certainty". Its an interesting bit of philosophy and it speaks to why we are so thrilled to be part of the adventure of building this boat. Its not a certainty nor IMHO was the book intended to make it certain, therefore, you can not rely on it to be your mother. This boat and all wooden boats are life..adventure...risk. Just like sailing will be! But I wax too serious...
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posted 11-18-2001 11:08 AM
I, too, had problems with frames 1 and 2. I spent most of yesterday grinding the port side of these two frames so that the planking will fall into the stem rabbet. I simply added a 9/16" spacer on the end of my 1/4" batten, then a small "plank" on the spacer to simulate the thickness of the frames. I ground away the molds until the underside of the "plank" sat in the rabbet. Today I tackle the starbord side. The transom is next.
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posted 11-18-2001 04:24 PM
Bill...
I concur. The new book, "Wooden Boats" by Michael Ruhlman is a must read for wooden boat builders or any lover of wooden boats.

Tom

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posted 01-04-2003 03:55 PM
I wanted to bring this thread to the top, so I am adding the following from a previous post by SteveW:
"I had poor fit conditions on molds 1-3 (planking missing the rabbet line, also floor timber #20 too wide at keel / Keel pattern too wide for floor timber at 9 & 10. I re-set the molds with a laser to ensure proper height off baseline (Worked great). All mold height from baseline was correct. Stern bedog bolt location poor, I had to recess stern bolt to prevent grinding half of it away,( better to have full strength, than half a bolt) There was a mistake made in the construction book- the centerboard trunk was too narrow ( no material for garboard plank to lie on) the blue print was widened at the beddogs, but they failed to relocate the bolt, this can be seen in the book. These are some of the small problems.

In summary we should give credit to the Manual for doing a good job ( As it was a first draft)and not a fool proof guide. "

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posted 01-17-2003 10:57 PM
Some more food for thought from old posts:
Nick Hyde posted 09-25-2000 06:52 PM
Thank you Lary and Paul for your help with the transom knee. Paul, yes! I did have trouble getting proper height above the
construction base line but only aft of the
centerboard box. A couple stations were about 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch too low. I didn't dare raise the whole the whole station, frame, floor timber and all for fear of disturbing the fairness of the hull. Should I simply detatch the frames from the molds (I used drywall screws to hold them down, not the lugs as described in the book)? Thank you!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul posted 09-25-2000 07:27 PM
Nick, I'm not at home, so I don't have access to my construction log. But, I do know I talked with several Haven builders who said the top of the 'as installed' floor timbers didn't come out to the dimensions given on the plans. In the 'how to' manual, I believe the advise is given, that you should shim, if necessary to hold the fore and aft height above the construction base. I had to install a few shims in mine to get it to work out just right. If you would like to email me, please feel free and I will share all my mistakes with you beforehand so you won't have to make as many. I certainly reveived valuable advise from Don, in Texas. I can tell you, I must have taken that CB trunk out a zillion times before getting it just right. Take care.

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posted 04-07-2003 07:09 PM
Pearse Morris
Builder posted 04-03-2003 03:39 PM
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To the hardest workingest boatbuilding fraternity of the web:
I have a question please. I have done a reasonably good job of molding, framing, and applying the floor timbers (several repeated rechecks of heights from the baseline), but now after setup #2 I am finding that the centerboard trunk is "sunken" too far into the boat for the keel to sweep over with a fair curve from the foremost stations to those behind the trunk. The trunk needs to be lifted off the floor timbers by 1/4" all along those frames (?11 - 16) to meet the keel pattern overhead. Because the weight of the keel and ballast is carried on the floor timbers, I must either shim the latter to make wood to wood contact with the logs or face the cruel task of redoing the timbering on all those stations. Of course, I would have detected and avoided this if I had put the centerboard trunk into the first setup with an overlying keel pattern like he shows in the book... but here I am now. I went back to the plans and reconstructed where the construction baseline should be on the sideview of the boat and it looks to me as if the problem is with the measurements given for each station rather than with my own humble handiwork. Have any of you encountered this discrepancy in the height from baseline-to-bedlog in your boat in the mid stations and if so how did you handle it?
Signed
A concerned parent in Winston

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Jack
Builder posted 04-03-2003 06:04 PM
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Pearse: I'll start here with the corrections that were sent to me by Wooden Boat awhile after I bought my plans. They stated that they had discovered errors in the table of offsets on Sheet #8. Corrected offsets for the far right column, Heights: Base to top of bedlog are as follows.
Station Measurement
11 36-1/16
12 35-13/16
13 35-1/2
14 35-1/4
15 35-1/16
16 34-13/16
Now these may be the figures that came with your set of plans and what you used. If not then at least this could be what caused your problem. Now to solve your problem. I've had my share of difficulties too and I always refer to Harold "Dynamite" Payson. "This is a boat you're building not a temple to the god of split hairs so 'Don't worry about it' ". In other words If you can glue a wood shim on to the floors to raise the trunk I'd do it.... or perhaps if the amount to be raised is uniform glue a strip on each side of the trunk on the bed log.This would seem the best to me as the strip would have good size thus not quite as prone to splitting from the bolt holes. You could hot glue a trial strip, see if it works and then do it for real. Perhaps there is a better solution out there but I hope this is a start. Good luck Jack

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Tom
Builder posted 04-03-2003 08:06 PM
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Hello Pearse. I'm following this post with great interest as I am just now building the platform and will be setting up my molds very soon. There is a topic on this Forum called "variations From Plans" :

http://www.havenbuilder.com/oldforum/HTML/000040.html which also (near the end) addresses this problem.
Good luck and let us know how you decide to resolve the problem.

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Pearse Morris
Builder posted 04-07-2003 05:16 PM
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Thanks everybody for your help on this latest vexation.

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Pearse Morris
Builder posted 04-07-2003 05:19 PM
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Thanks Jack, I did not have the corrections in my plans, but I will keep them for my next boat. My impression is that the correction necessary was even greater than the dimensions you gave but the balance may have been my shoddy work. Nevertheless it is very frustrating to have these errors in the plans. I STRONGLE ADVISE newcomers to note Jack's correction figures and to incorporate them into your table of offsets.
Cheers
Pearse

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posted 11-15-2006 01:01 PM
Gene spotted this one:
Step 93, p. 23 shows a photograph of a mold supporting the centerboard trunk. The mold appears to have the number "10" on it.
The plans indicate that molds 11 through 16 are notched for the CB trunk. Mold No. 10 is the next mold forward of No. 11 but does not have a notch.

Am I fretting needlessly about a random scribbling or am I missing something.

Gene

Good catch Gene! That "10" is actually written on frame #11.

Tom

posted 11-11-2001 05:41 PM
The foundry that we use to cast our outboard motor brackets has notified us of a price increase in their casting charges due to the higher price of energy. Large items such as the motor bracket for the 12 1/2 will be particularly effected. (The Bronze that we use melts at 1850 degrees F but is poured at about 2400 degrees F)
At present we have two outboard motor brackets on hand that are at the old price. We will sell these two brackets on a first come first serve basis at the old price through the end of the year. We will be placing our Spring order with this foundry shortly any new brackets will be at the higher price.

Anyone wishing to place an order for one of the two remaining brackets may do so by using the order form that is part of our web site or by calling me at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

posted 11-12-2001 11:12 AM
When registering, all participants on this forum agree to the Terms of Service which include the statement:
"Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this BB."

All participants are expected to abide by this agreement.

Thank you,

Tom Strong
Webmaster/Owner

posted 11-12-2001 03:11 PM
Paul has submitted 20 new photos, with commentary, of the details of his construction process. Thanks Paul!!!
http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/paul_bunch2.html

posted 11-13-2001 09:00 AM
I have a complete set of used Haven Forms that I have been storing for 10 years. I've decided I'm not going to be getting to this project anytime soon and would like to sell them with an option to buy them back when you are done. You can get more information from me at joe.oliver@alltel.com.

posted 11-16-2001 12:36 PM
Jack O'Leary has submitted some great new photos of the carvel planking process : http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/joplank/olearyplank.html

posted 11-19-2001 12:04 AM
Please note that the number of thread categories has been reduced from 11 to 4 for simplicity sake. The "search" function will still retrieve information from the removed threads. Also, all of the information contained in those threads can be accessed from the "Home Page"
( http://www.havenbuilders.com ) main menu.
[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 11-19-2001).]

posted 11-19-2001 05:55 PM
I am ready to start working on my stem and keel, and I am looking for input on lumber.
I am planning on using white oak. I have local sources of supply for kiln-dried and for green, but no local source for air-dried (at least none I have found yet). Given this choice, I am strongly inclined to go with the green wood. My question is this: am I asking for trouble in terms of cracking, checking, splitting, etc. by going with green lumber? Am I better off finding air-dried? I believe the green lumber is very green; cut in the last few weeks. I would likely cut and shape the stem right away, and then seal with red lead, but if I get the keel lumber now, I may not work on it for some time (a month or 2?). What about getting green stock now for frames that will likely not be bent for several months?

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Jack
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posted 11-20-2001 01:17 AM
For a start : Where are you? There is an excellent source of white oak here in the Pacific Northwest. Flounder Bay lumber Anacortes , Wash. Thats where I got my framing lumber. Nice and green and I used it almost immediately.. However you can keep it wrapped in plastic and keep it wet for awhile. I probably wouldn't want to keep it around too long and not get it bent and on the molds. I used air dried oak for my stem and that i cut out bolted together and painted with red lead and had no problems with twist, cracking,splitting etc. I think the secret seems to lie in exposing the wood to equal conditions on all sides and it seems fine. I coated the frames with a mixture of linseed oil and turpentine shortly after they were bent and they have held up well also. You can see my efforts in the builder section of this site. Jack O.
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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-20-2001 03:21 PM
Stem: Air dried white oak would be best although I think KD would be OK if the boat will live on a trailer.
Keel: I think green would be best although there may be some checking as it dries...not sure...haven't done this yet. Air dried might not take the bend. If you let the green wood site around, definetly wrap it in plastic with some wetted towels to keep it from checking. After bending slop on some boiled linseed oil or CPES to slow water passage.

Frames: Definetly green w. oak. Tarp 'em, get out the frames just before bending day, soak 'em overnight in water, steam for 50 minutes, bend them slowly (take about 30 seconds) and use a compression strap (1/8" x 1" aluminum strap secured in wedge at bottom and clamped at top of frame just prior to bending). Strap will induce compression along the outer edge and minimize tensile failure (wood cells compress better than they stretch). Bending is way fun! Have some friends over. BTW... rule of thumb: if you get out twice as many frames as you need, none will break...if you get out just what you need...half will break. I broke 7 and had a few left over. Later.

000048
Mold Thickness
Thurman Rasmussen
Builder
Posts: 6
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-19-2001 11:49 PM
I am new to the Haven Forum and just beginning to make plans for building this charming Haven 12 and 1/2. My question is this: Is it all right to use 3/4 inch common pine for the molds or MUST I use 7/8 inch lumber? In the past I have built two glued lapstrake boats designed by Iain Oughtred. Steam bending frames on molds will be a learning experience.
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Jack
Builder
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posted 11-20-2001 01:01 AM
No sweat to using 3/4" material for your molds . At least that's what I used and it worked fine.. You might take a look at my building pictures the first one shows the molds -wedges-and angle connectors to building base. Good luck
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Bill Sterling
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posted 11-20-2001 03:27 PM
What Jack said. You're going to overlap the 3/4" with the cross pieces so you'll reach 1.5" anyway. The frames are 13/16" square. Plenty of room. The extra space is utilized especially on the forward molds for the following reason: during frame bending you'll need to drive a few nails into the face of the beveled mold to keep the frame from sliding off.
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tborah
Builder
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Registered: May 2001

posted 11-28-2001 04:30 PM
I almost used 3/4 inch stock for my molds, but I went with 7/8 instead. The only hitch I could foresee was the brackets that are used to hold the base of the frames for bending. The frames are 13/16", but if you use 3/4" for the molds, it seemed to me you would need to shim the brackets or shave the frame at the end(?). I decided to just pony up the extra few $$'s for the 7/8" and keep it simple. It sounds like others have used the 3/4" successfully, though.
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Paul
Builder
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posted 11-29-2001 07:38 AM
I haven't heard from anyone that had problems using the 3/4" stock. The 7/8" would be nice but I would have had to buy 4/4 and plane it down. You will need to keep the socket ends in mind when you set the mold up with the 3/4" stock. I just shaved off a little on each frame and made the socket to fit the 3/4" mold. Good luck and don't forget to relieve the edges of your frame stock prior to steaming and bending!

000049
Great new photos from Bill Sterling!
Admin5
Webmaster
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posted 11-20-2001 03:45 PM
We now will have construction photos to follow of a strip planked boat, as well as a carvel and a cold molded boat! Bill's photos are at: http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/sterling1.html
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Tom

Admin5
Webmaster

posted 12-17-2001 09:17 PM
Bill Sterling's excellent Keel Pour photos and commentary are now available. Go to home page
http://www.havenbuilders.com/index.html then navigate the "Construction" menu tab to "Lead Keel", then to "Bill Sterling."

Please let me know if you have any problems navigating, or bringing up the pages. I have done a considerable amount of redesign and need to know if everything is working properly on various browsers.

000050
Menu
Admin5
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posted 11-21-2001 07:08 PM
Improvements have been made making the main menu (at the top of the pages) of this site work better in Internet Explorer. Unfortunately, the main menu does not function on these Forum pages because they are on a separate server. Go to: http://www.havenbuilders.com to try out the "Drop Down Menu"

000051
12 1/2 Standiing Rigging
Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-24-2001 10:25 AM
Over the years I have found that one of the areas of greatest concern and confusion to builders of the 12 1/2 is the attachment of the standing rigging (stays). The specifications from Herreshoff Mfg. Co. call for the upper ends of the stays to be spliced into a loop or eye. The loops fit over the top of the mast in the following order: Lowest down and sitting on top of the peak halyard block attachment, HM4215 Flange Eye, is the loop of the starboard stay. Just above is the port stay followed on top by the head stay. Immediately above all of this is the HM9617 flange eye which is the termination point of the peak halyard.
To prevent the wire rope stay from cutting into the soft wood of the mast the loops are served (tightly wrapped) with a marine twine called "marlin". They are then oversewn with a covering of elk hide. The two eyes for the Gaff Bridle are done in a similar manner. When done properly the result is really spectacular.

One of the ways to tell a well made 12 1/2 from a hack job is to look at the top of the mast. Some amatures have made up a Bronze cone with eyes on it to fit over the top of the mast. The stays are attached to the eyes. Nat Herreshoff would turn over in ;his grave at just the thought of this ugly cone and all its weight sitting up there.

Right now the lead time here at Bristol Bronze to make up standing rigging in the manner described above is six to eight weeks. Any builder planning on a Spring launch would do well to get their rigging order in shortly so that they will not be disappoiinted.

The lower ends of the stays are "leaded" into the tapered barel of the unique and beautiful Herreshoff Turnbuckle. The total result is a neat and beautiful addition to any 12 1/2.

Anyone that has any questions or would like to discuss the standing rigging can reach me at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Jim Reineck
Builder
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posted 12-02-2001 04:48 PM
A look at the spar plans will reveal a step at the tip of the mast. This place is called the hounds and is where the shrouds are intended to rest and not on top of the flange eye (HMCo. 4215). In order for the loops to stay there, they must be made to fit just right over the tip of the mast without being too tight or too loose. Getting these eyes the right size is something best left to the expertise of a professional rigger such as Joe Mellow at The Rigging Loft in New Bedford, MA. He makes them served and leathered if desired. I have used and recommended him for years. Making the eye splices too large, will allow them to slide down until they rest on the flange eye which puts all the stress of the rig, which is considerable, on those two unhappy screws holding the flange eye in place. Making the eyes too small will put a sharp bend in the shrouds and forestay where they lead over each other and cause undue stress, which should be avoided. To eliminate crushing the mast at this step, my mast (an original Herreshoff mast) had a rope grommet (about 3/8” manila) spliced tightly around the tip and slid down to the hounds for the wire eyes to rest on. This provides a nice pad.
As for the comments by Roger W. about the mast cone, Nat Herreshoff was the first to adopt good ideas when he saw them. Using the cone does not substantially change the weight aloft. The weight of the stays are reduced by close to a foot of wire length for each of three eye splices, and by providing attachment points for the jib and peak halyards as well, you eliminate the spar flanges otherwise needed for these, saving more weight aloft. An added bonus is a spinnaker halyard eye at the top for free. I have not actually weighed these parts to see what the actual difference is. It may well be that using the cone saves weight instead! The best professional builders of Haven and Herreshoff 12½s universally use the mast cone. They include Eric Dow, Cape Cod Shipbuilding, Doughdish Inc. and Ballentine’s Boatshop. None of them are amateurs. I offer them to my customers as well even though I don’t make them. Here are several good reasons to use them:

- They make setting up the rig much easier and without the confusion of which stay goes over which.

- The stays are cheaper without the spliced eyes. Swaged eyes can be used for only few dollars each.

- The chafe of the mast at the hounds is completely eliminated.

- Just about any rigger, even West Marine, can make them for you, eliminating one of your headaches.

- Since your boat may not, in spite of Herculean efforts on your part, come out just exactly as per the plans, you can easily get them made to fit your boat.

I could go on, but suffice it to say, they are a good idea, much like cam cleats, which Captain Nat also did not use on the originals but would have loved.

I would however agree that they are not as traditional and of course not original.

Jim Reineck
J.M. Renieck & Son

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-02-2001).]

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-04-2001 08:07 PM
Nat Herreshoff was one of the greatest yacht designers ever. To really experience the pleasure of a Herreshoff boat the boat must be as close as possible to the way that Captain Nat designed her. The cone at the top of the 12 1/2s mast was first added by skippers on Buzzards Bay in Massachusetts in ;the 1930's. They were looking for a less expensive way to replace, with stainless steel, the galvanized wire rope that was used for the standing rigging in the first 12 1/2s. The splicing, serving and leathering is better but more expensive. Jim is right that Nat Herreshoff and Herreshoff Mfg. were quick to adopt new and better ideas. The most recent version of the 12 1/2 plans from Herreshoff are dated 23 Feb. 1938. That was well after the cone first came out and Herreshoff refused to adopt it. It was new but definitely not better. Just cheaper.
A good friend who is a former Herreshoff employee tells me that everyone at Herreshoff Mfg. thought that it was an ugly abomination and shunned it. The cone is heavier than the spliced rigging. This should be a major turnoff to any Haven builder. The Haven carries less ballast that the keel version 12 1/2 and is a more tender boat. The rule of thumb is that every pound of weight carried aloft is like having fifty pounds sitting on the lee rail. In addition to providing more wind resistance the cone will increase the fulcurm effect. Add to that it is also ugly and not according to the Herreshoff specifications.

A hound is a metal or wood fitting that is attached to a spar as a support for a stay. There are no hounds on a 12 1/2. My own boat was built at Herreshoff Mfg. Co. in September of 1920. It has ten wooden hounds on the mast. The 12 1/2 uses a shelf or step at the tip of the mast. Above the step is a short tapered wooden cone. Just below the shelf is a HM4215 Flange Eye. At the top of the cone is a HM9617 Flange Eye. Herreshoff Mfg. Co. plans 76-118-C clearly show that the eyes in the three stays rest on the shelf between the two Flange Eyes.

It is our practice to supply stays to builders with a foot or two of extra wire rope to compensate for any slight deviation in the mast height. The stays can be easily cut to lenght and then leaded into the beautiful and unique Herreshoff Turnbuckles that are on the lower ends of the stays. For those that do not wish to do their own leading we can provide that service.

It is the beauty and simplicity of the unique Herreshoff designed fittings that help to make the 12 1/2 the beautiful and attention attracting boat that it is. A builder that does not chose to use these fittings gets only half a boat and misses some of the joy that only a truly complete Herreshoff boat can give. I have owned my own Herreshoff boat for thirty-one years. I have worked very hard to keep her original to the Herreshoff plans. Even to starting my own company to make the fittings when none were available on the market. Evey Summer I get to experience not only the pleasure of sailing her but of the attention that she attracts. Most knowledgeable sailors know her to be a Herreshoff just by the design of her hull and her fittings.

A few years ago I asked Nat Herreshoff's grandson, Halsey, if he know ;that beside being a great yacht designer her grandfather also had the eye of an artist. Halsey replied that he did but that not many people appreciated that fact. Nat Herreshoff must have felt that function and beauty could exist together. Just about everything that he designed functions beautifully and is also very pleasing to the eye. Not too many of the more modern boat designs or fittings can make the same claim.

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Bill Sterling
Builder
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posted 12-05-2001 03:07 PM
Wow! Both you guys are great and I think this qualifies as the "LIVELY" discussion that Tom wants. Keep it coming. There's a lot of very interested builders listening. Thank you both for supporting this board. Question somewhat off topic: is it appropriate (traditional) to white paint the tips of any of the spars? And on the subject of color...how were these boats usually painted? White in the interior is great but I think it'd be a little hard on the eyes in bright sun. How about beige in there? (I'm dreaming ahead of myself quite a bit).
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-05-2001 07:28 PM
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your kind words. In response to your questions, I have never seen the tip of the spars on a 12 1/2 painted white but then again, why not? Since it will be your boat you can do anything that you want. In the final analysis the boat has to suit you and no one else.

Nat Herreshoff's famous quote about painting boats is, "There are only two colors to paint a boat, black and white, and only a damn fool would paint it black". Now a days I have seen Herreshoff boats painted just about any color that you can think of. My own boat is dark blue. It's not quite black so I guess I am not quite the "damn fool" that Capt. Nat spoke of.

It customery in the 12 1/2 here on Narragansett Bay not to paint the bilge at all. The paint in time will flake and just make a mess of everything. The interior is usually painted with a flat white to keep the glare down.

Any time that you have a question please do not hesitate to contact me. I want all of my customers to think of me as a resource and as a point of contact for any help that they need.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-06-2001 08:00 AM
Bill, I have seen Haven pictures with the tips of the mast, gaff and boom painted white. I think it was a WB post sometime last year. Doesn't look bad. I believe I read somewhere the tips of masts where painted white (long ago)because of the limit of the bosun's chair that would allow a painter to reach. What couldn't be reached was painted white and what could be reached varnished or oiled. Can't comfirm one way or the other.
As far as the interior of the boat, I have always read that a flat white to reduce glare was the way to go. This would apply to the decks as well. Kirby's supplies a deck paint called Alerion buff, that they make up on special order. It makes a beautiful deck paint that elimantes glare.
As far as the rigging and hardware goes, I want to use blocks and rigging that are high quality, finished nicely and well made. Let's face it there are plenty of Herrshoff style cleats and fittings out there. It boils down to what the owner of boat chooses to put on his boat.
One thing to keep in mind on the standing rigging is the length of the gaff bridal. Without a reef the bridal I have sets the sails nicely, however, it is too long when a reef point is taken and the gaff cannot be pulled up to set the sail properly, as the blocks interfer with one another. Next year I plan to replace the wire gaff bridal I have with something like spectra.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-06-2001 07:52 PM
Dear Paul,
It sounds as if your Gaff Bridle is either improperly made and improperly positioned on the gaff or both. I suggest that you consult Herreshoff Mfg. Co. plans 76-118-C of 2/23/38. The plans show the precise location of both the eyes of the Gaff Bridle. The Herreshoff Mfg. Co. specifications call for the Gaff Bridle to be of 5/32" Dia. wire rope with both eyes served and leathered. We have supplied many many Gaff Bridles over the years and have not had a customer have a problem yet when they went by the plans.

I have owned a Herreshoff boat for thirty-one years. In that time I have learned that Capt. Nat gave a great deal of thought to every thing that he did and was usually right. Early on I made several changes that I was sure would be "better" and "improve" my boat. In every case I ended up going back the original design within a year or two. So much for knowing better than Nat Herreshoff.

If you have any questions or any problems that I can help you with I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-07-2001 01:22 PM
Roger, you provided the stays from the fellow that does your rigging. I installed it according to the correct specifications. I believe it is the length of the bridal since I located the eyes on the gaff according to the Herreshoff plans. It's not a problem when the sails are set without a reef point, but once a reef point is set, the bridal is clearly too long for that application. The leather wrapped eyes are nice and professionsly finished, but I'm wondering if a swaged eye served with leather would accomplish the same thing and be more economical.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-07-2001 07:30 PM
Dear Paul,
Thanks for the reply. The swaged eyes do cost less but I have found that they don't last. In one of the first years that I owned my boat I had to make up a new jib halyard strap. On my boat the jib halyard strap goes completely around my mast, 360 degrees. The strap is held up by hounds on the aft side of the mast. The jib halyard block shackles into the eyes in the strap on the forward side of the mast. Being in a hurry that year and also trying to save money I had the local boat yard swedge a new strap for me. They used double swedge fittings on both eyes. About ten years later, on a really windy day, I heard what sounded like a shot, the whole boat shook and the jib came down. The double sweage fittings on one of the eyes had pulled out. The four shrouds of my standing rigging are all original from 1920, are all spliced, and are all still working fine. I learned a good lesson that time. Cheaper is not always the best way to go.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Jim Reineck
Builder
Posts: 15
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-10-2001 09:24 AM
I am glad Roger corrected himself and now agrees that the shrouds should sit on the shoulder (hounds) at the top of the mast and not on top of the flange eye. That could have caused some confusion or worse if not addressed and corrected.
To continue on with the discussion of the mast cone, I will be the first to agree with you that they are rather unpretty. Personally, I like using the old spliced shrouds that came with my boat, but I have tried to mitigate the damage caused by the wire and I don’t trailer sail. Nobody, least of all me, would argue that Nat Herreshoff was anything less that a genius and an artist and that his hardware is arguably the best of his creations. We are not however talking about hardware here; we are talking instead about tradition. The use of the mast cone serves only as a cure to the many problems presented by spliced eyes, the damage they cause to the mast and to make setting up the rig, especially when trailer sailing, easier. One can hardly ague when virtually all the professional builders have adopted it, both for their own and their customers’ convenience. When the cone is used, the stays will be the same length every time the rig is put in, because there is no shifting of the eyes at the masthead. This means that the turnbuckles won’t have to be readjusted every time. Slack will have to be taken out of course, but that is all. The arguments of weight aloft, wind resistance and “fulcrum affect” are, in the vernacular of the engineer, negligible, serving only to lead us off the track.

I take issue with Roger’s assertion that the Haven 12½ “carries less ballast tha(n) the keel version 12½ and is a more tender boat.” It does have less lead ballast, but Joel White was very specific in the introduction to his book, How to Build the Heaven 12½ Footer, concerning his efforts to replicate the performance and look of the original Herreshoff 12½. I quote here from his book. “Toward that end, the displacement and stability of the two boats are identical, the fore-and-aft center of buoyancy are the same, and the same sail plan was used. In order to retain the same displacement and stability, the beam was increased some 3” amidships and 1½” at the stern.” The increase in beam is why the ballast had to be reduced if displacement of the boat was to remain the same. I would not want anyone reading this discussion to think that the Haven 12½ was in any way (except pedigree) inferior to the original Herreshoff 12½s. In fact a Haven 12½ won the Herreshoff Rendezvous Regatta in the 12½ class last summer by a large margin.

HOUNDS

I have spent several hours researching the definition and uses of the word “hounds” (I was tempted to let it go, but thought it an interesting word to know the meaning of. I like to know whether I am right or wrong.) What Roger calls a hound is referred to as a bolster, cleat or cheek everywhere I could find it used. The most authoritative source I have is Lever’s Young Sea Officer’s Sheet Anchor, second edition, published in 1819. There are several illustrations showing this area. It is invariably the area of the masthead where the shrouds and forestay rest and are supported. It can be a lower or topmast. The mast in all cases is smaller in diameter or goes from round to square above, forming shoulders on the lower round portion. Where the mast is squared, the crosstrees rest on these shoulders and the stays rest on top of them. Where the mast is simply reduced in diameter, a rope grommet is pressed down over the smaller portion, as I mentioned before, to form a pad for the stays to rest on. Some drawings do show cheeks or cleats added to the mast to further support the stays. My use of the word comes from my days sailing tall ships and we called this area “the hounds. ” I would often climb up there to get some privacy and to enjoy the ride on top of the crosstrees.

Another reference I found that has an even more detailed and direct discussion is a book called “The Cutty Sark”, The last of the famous Tea Clippers, Being a description of the Hull, Deck Fittings, and the rigging of the famous ship…” published in 1959. This book is in two volumes and together is over 400 pages of very detailed information and drawings about the ship and it’s rigging. I will quote a small portion that makes this all clear.

“The Hounds. ---- Between the head and the mast proper are the “hounds.” Every one who knows anything about boats and ships knows what is meant by the hounds, but I have been unable to find any concise definition of the term. In mediaeval days, when thick hemp ropes had to be used for shrouds, a thick bulbous stop was worked on the mast at the bottom of the head to prevent the shrouds from slipping down, and big shrouds had to have a big stop. This lump on the mast was called the ‘hounds.’ The ‘hounded length’ of a mast is its length from the top of this bulbous stop to the bottom of the tenon at the foot.

“The Cheeks ----- The big wooden masts of a ship were provided with “cheeks” at the hounds. The sides of the mast were cut flat, and solid blocks of oak were bolted on these flats, projecting forward half the diameter of the mast. The top of these cheeks was flat, and upon them rested the ‘trestle trees,’ which in their turn carried the ‘cross trees’ and ‘the top.’ … A mast with cheeks bolted on is said to be ‘cheeked,’ to distinguish it from a mast that ‘heads’ itself. In the latter case the masthead is cut square, and where the square section joins the circular section a decided shoulder is left upon which the trestle trees are bedded. Such a mast is said to head itself. …

“The main length of the mast lies between the deck and the hounds. This is a circular section and tapers slightly from the deck upwards.”

In the case of the Haven 12½, the mast head is also round, since no trestle trees are to be installed, but the shoulder results none the less and thus the hounds. I would be most interested in other perspectives and I invite the readers of the forum to further research if you have the interest.

Bill,

I have been coming to this site for some time, and I am happy to finally become a sponsor. I hope that my perspective will be helpful to all.

As to painting the tips of the spars white, I have never seen any Herreshoff boats thus painted. This painting fashion is more common on working and fishing boats, and yachts rooted in these traditions. I don’t think it is appropriate for a fine yacht like yours.

I think that you will find that if you paint the interior anything but a very light color, it will get hot in the summer sun, but flat is good. This also applies to the decks. Nat Herreshoff painted the interior of his dinghy for Alerion III a “very light shade of green”. I agree with Roger that you should leave the bilges unpainted. I had no end of trouble with flaking paint in the bilges of my boat and I worked long and hard to get it out! On the other hand, Herreshoff had a running disagreement with the Nevins Yard in NY about the merits of painting the interior, including the bilges on the grounds that it helped preserve and protect the wood. I will try linseed oil or shellac when I do mine over.

Paul,

From scaling the drawing, the wire length of the bridle from the inside of the eyes should be about 3’5”, which will leave about 3” between the blocks when reefed. As for the swaged fitting, they are quite strong enough when properly sized and crimped, but not to worry with this rig, as there is nothing about this rig that is highly stressed. I have swage eyes on the bridle of my Buzzards Bay 15 footer and have been out in over 45mph of wind without problems. The only problem with them is that they are not very easy to serve over since there will be a big lump where the swage is. You can build up the serving on either side of the swage to smooth out the transition, but it will never be as smooth as a wire splice. For information about rigging I recommend you get in touch with Joe Mellow (or Tom) at the Rigging Loft in New Bedford, MA. (508) 991-2961, they are very knowledgeable and easy to talk to.

Jim Reineck
J.M. Reineck & Son

000052
Wanted: Used Molds
Thurman Rasmussen
Builder
Posts: 6
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-24-2001 12:08 PM

Searching for used "Molds" for the Haven 12 and 1/2. Any leads would be appreciated.
Thurman

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Admin5
Webmaster
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posted 11-24-2001 01:10 PM
Mold making might be made easier by using the new 2' x 16' pattern transfer paper (big enough for a 4' x 8' piece of plywood) offered by Glen-L Marine: http://www.glen-l.com/
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tborah
Builder
Posts: 29
Registered: May 2001

posted 11-26-2001 12:45 PM
Check out previous posts on this forum:
11/13/01 post by BongoCruiser under title "Haven Forms", and 11/7/00 post by frostja under "Haven 12-1/2 forms". Not sure if these are used forms, or forms that have been built, but never used - may be a big difference! Hope this helps.

000053
Materials
Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-29-2001 12:21 PM
With the launching and subsequent sailing of my Haven, I thought I'd take the opportunity to give everyone my experience on the materials I've used on my boat. The sails were from Gambel and Hunter, they did a great job cutting the sails and the sails have performed very well, but the lead time is about 8-10 months so consider that in your material aquistion. I got all my sitka spruce from ML Condon in New Yok I ordered a piece of 18' 4"x4" for the mast. They sent my a 20' length to make sure I was able to get good material. I used George Kirby's paint and can't say enough good things about it. Good folks to deal with and they have great customer service. All the bronze blocks,eye flanges and cleats come from JM Reineck and Son. On a side by side comparison with other hardware I've seen, the quality of his work is superior and are beautifully finished. He is very knowledgable and has great customer service, and likes to talk boats. He can give you good advise on rigging your boat. I ordered the stem band, chain plates and goose neck from Steve Ballentine, Ballentine's Boat work. You will not find a nicer gentleman and Steve doesn't make you feel like you have to give your order and get off the phone. I have just recently found out there is a motor mount available for Haven's that mount to the side of the hull, just aft of amidships. This is the way I'm going to mount my motor. Good luck on outfitting your boat. Lead time should be taken into consideration as you are in the process of building. Just in time shipping methods, don't always apply to boat building. By the way, I've just started my second boat, a small lapstrake tender from Duck Trap boat works. Nice people there to. And most of all a big thanks to Tom for having this forum availale for us to discuss our Haven's.
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Bill Sterling
Builder
Posts: 61
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 11-29-2001 03:13 PM
I'll add that Roger at Bristol Bronze has been abundantly helpful with regards to fastener problems I've had with screws purchased elsewhere. He knows his stuff and has a lot of Herreshoff documentation. I'm very pleased to have discovered this resource at the beginning of my need for bronze.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 11-30-2001 07:39 AM
Dear Paul,
You may want to rethink the use of the side mounted motor bracket. It is maded of welded together stainless steel and will begin to bleed rust in short order. Being mounted so far off the centerline your boat will not track straight and you will constantly have to use the rudder to keep her on course. The fact that it is mounted on one side will prevent you from putting that side of the boat against a dock for fear of crushing the motor. You will never be able to use the motor in a beam sea and you will alwasy have to turn into a power boat wake. Otherwise you will submerge the motor as the boat rolls. A sten mounted bracket is the only way to go.

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Jim Reineck
Builder
Posts: 15
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-14-2001 01:28 AM
Paul,
I talked to Bill Harding about the motor mount you are considering. He says that they are available in bronze as well on special order. He also tells me that he has tested them in a sea and finds the only problem is that the prop sometimes comes out of the water if you take a sea on the wrong side. He says that you will quickly get used to steering the boat with the motor off center and that the convenience of having the motor controls and steering at you side and easily reached far outweighs any advangtage of having it on the centerline. I would also point out that Roger at Bristol Bronze has cautioned people not to use his mount if the sails are up because there is a chance that the main sheet could catch the motor and toss it overboard. Not a pretty prospect if you ask me!
It sounds like you will be using your boat mostly on lakes anyway where large waves and calm weather are not likely to happen at the same time.

Best regards,
Jim Reineck
J.M. Reineck & Son

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-22-2001).]

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Jim Reineck
Builder
Posts: 15
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-22-2001 12:22 AM
Bill, Other forum visitors might find your problems and solutions with bronze fastenings interesting. I'm interested. I was not aware that there were problems with manufacturers of Silicon bronze screws, what's the scoop?
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Sterling:
I'll add that Roger at Bristol Bronze has been abundantly helpful with regards to fastener problems I've had with screws purchased elsewhere. He knows his stuff and has a lot of Herreshoff documentation. I'm very pleased to have discovered this resource at the beginning of my need for bronze.

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-29-2001 09:18 AM
As just about any professional boat builder will tell you there has been a problem for many years with the quality of Silicon Bronze wood screws. Unfortunately more and more suppliers are buying their screws off shore. The quality of the imported screws is not as good as those made in the USA.
Most screws are made from wire in a process called "Cold Heading". The metal goes through some pretty substantial shape changes during this process. It is the atribute of Silicon Bronze to work harden rapidly that makes this metal an excellent choice for screws. The soft temper wire that you start with is transformed into a good stiff screw in the finished product.

During my career in the metals industry I have sold millions of pounds of cold heading wire. The temper of this wire must be exact and must be consistant throughout the coil. If it is not the temper of the screws will be off and you will have problems. Every boat builder I know is having problems with screws breaking off when being driven into hard wood. The time expended in getting the broken screw out more than offsets the cost saving in the purchase of the whole box of imported screws. One builder in New Hampshire told me recently that he was averaging ten to twelve broken screw per box.

The quality controls of foreign wire manufacturers is not as good as domestic manufacturers. The wire probably varied in both temper and diameter causing the screws to vary as well. I sold the builder mentioned above two boxes of domestic screws. He reported that not one broke. The best advice is to buy screws of domestic manufacture. You will pay a little more but save in the long run.

If anyone would like more in depth information about the cold heading process I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Bill Sterling
Builder
Posts: 61
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 01-02-2002 03:35 PM
Jim, the scoop is pretty much what Roger said above. He's my only source on the subject except for my own experience. May I ask, how easy is it to shear off #12 screws by hand in hardwood? They were breakin' off right and left and the ones that did sink all the way were mutated when I pulled them back out. I don't want to slam the supplier 'cause I think its just a bad batch. All I know is Roger's worked great.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 01-03-2002 07:43 AM
Bill,
You hit the nail (or screw) right on the head. The cold heading industry is a small one and not too many people are knowledgeable in it. The temper of the cold heading wire must be within a very close range and the wire within a given lot must be CONSISTANT.

The cold heading and roll threading machines can be adjusted slightly to allow for variations from lot to lot. When up and running both types of machines cycle two to three hundred strokes per minute. All the wire within a coil must be exactly the same in temper. The machines run too fast for the operator (who is usually running several machines at the same time) to notice any changes.

I suspect that the screws that you had trouble with were imports. The wire that they were made from was not consistant in temper. The wire usually comes in coils of either 250 pounds or 500 pounds. That makes a lot of screws. Probably the screws from most of the coil were fine but you happened to get a box made from a section of wire that was off in temper.

Screws made from wire made in the USA are usually more consistant due to the better quality control of domestic mills. The imports are cheaper but can cost more in the long run due to the added costs associated with trying to remove broken screws. One of my best friends owns a cold heading company. His product is more expensive buy boy are they GOOD.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

000054
Welcome a new sponsor: J. M. Reineck & Son
Admin5
Webmaster
Posts: 467
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posted 12-01-2001 03:05 PM
I am happy to announce that we have another great new sponsor and resource for the site, J. M. Reineck & Son.

http://www.bronzeblocks.com
[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 12-02-2001).]

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Jim Reineck
Builder
Posts: 15
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-02-2001 02:51 PM
We are excited and honored to share sponsorship of this web site and I would like to introduce myself to those of you who have not yet heard of our company or our products.
We are a relative newcomer to this market, having introduced our first product, Herreshoff 7/16” series bronze blocks, at the 1995 WoodenBoat show. Prior to that I spent nearly 30 years as a mechanical engineer and research scientist in industry and almost as much time studying yacht design and Herreshoff. The business arose out of a need for hardware to complete the restoration of my 1905 Buzzards Bay 15 Footer, which I bought in 1976. After sailing her for five glorious years, it was apparent that the boat needed a complete rebuild. Anticipating completion soon, I realized that I had better start looking for hardware to finish her as she deserved to be finished. It became apparent after looking in vain for suitable reproductions or someone who would make them for me, that if I were going to have hardware I would be happy with (and I am rather picky), I would have to make it myself. So I went to the Hart Nautical Collections at MIT, where the Herreshoff designs are housed, met with the curator and got copies of all the relevant drawings. Then I put on my engineering cap and came up with the one “improvement” to Herreshoff’s blocks that would enhance and at the same time preserve the original design aesthetics; double row Delrin™ ball bearings. If I do say so myself, it is a tremendous improvement! With prototypes in hand, I went back to the curator at the Hart Nautical Collections and worked out a licensing agreement to produce authentic reproductions of the Herreshoff hardware designs.

Redesigning the blocks for modern ball bearings was not the only engineering factor to consider. It was rumored that Herreshoff used a “special” alloy of bronze that is not available today. To determine the composition of the metal used, we had original pieces chemically analyzed and found out what that alloy is and we are using it. Most of our blocks have been tested to failure and compared the results to calculations of the strength and found very close correlation. If anyone is interested, I have the test data. They are surprisingly strong for their weight. The smallest blocks for 5/16” line (the size you need for the Haven 12½) will sustain over 1100 lb. without failure! Since then, I have expanded my product line to include blocks suitable for boats up to sixty feet in five sizes and two styles. All our products are guaranteed for the life of the original purchaser. Our company motto is “If you’re not happy, we’re not happy!” and we mean it.

I want to say right here that this is the last time I will use this space to wave my flag. I will respect the right of the readers of this forum to read these pages without wondering what is a sales pitch and what is unbiased, honest opinion, and the administrator by not promoting my products in any way in this forum. I will endeavor to express my opinions with professional objectivity and let my products and my reputation stand on their own. On the other hand, because of my education and experience in mechanical engineering, metallurgy and research, I have a perspective that I believe will be of value to everyone here when it comes to hardware, metals and sailboat rigging, and its mechanics and analysis of problems.

In closing, please forgive the incompleteness of my web site. Since 9/11, I have been having problems and some of the functionality of the site has been lost temporarily (some was never there). I am working to restore and enlarge the resources there. I have high hopes that time and $ will allow more work there. In the mean time, please use this forum, e-mail or the telephone to contact me; I will do everything I can to make your boating experience a happy and satisfying one.

Happy boatbuilding!

Jim Reineck, Owner
J.M. Reineck & Son http://www.bronzeblocks.com

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-02-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-02-2001).]

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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-03-2001 04:39 PM
Welcome to Jim Reineck! His work is adorning my boat: blocks, eye flanges, bronze anchor and more! Jim does great work and the quality of his work is evident from the photos, to bad he didn't include some of his oar locks and eye flanges, quality throughout! I can't say enough good stuff about the blocks with the bearings. The lines pay out effortlessly, even under light wind loading.
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Jim Reineck
Builder
Posts: 15
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-03-2001 07:57 PM
Paul, Thanks for the kind words. You are the kind of customer I quit my "day job" for.
As for more pictures, I will put them on my site when I get a little time and a scanner. Do you have any you are particularly proud of that I could use?

Best regards,
Jim Reineck
J.M. Reineck & Son

000055
Ramblings
Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-04-2001 08:35 AM
I think it is unbelievable that this many Haven builders are sharing their experience. As well, I can't believe there are two Haven's being constructed within an hour drive of my location.
I was thinking back on the time when I was finishing out the inside and thought I would add a few words that some may want to consider.
The bow cleat is shown bolted on the plans. To accomplish this, you will have to install the cleat before you complete the bulkhead. Or, have an access cut into the forward deck. I remember that there was no way that I could reach the through bolts from the bulkhead....maybe my arms are too short. I have a set of Herreshoff 12 1/2 drawing from Mystic Seaport. The plans show a small bronze port opening on the forward deck just behind the coamings...so it fits between the coamings and the main deck beam. I think this would be an asset to the Haven. It would allow you to have access to through bolts for the mast partner, should you want to use bolts instead of screws. And could help in ventilation during storage. Although the plans do not go into detail about where to install the vent plate in the bulkhead, you will need to remember to put a backing plate behind the cedar for the mounting screws for the vent plate ring. I know there are advocates for not enclosing this area, but I chose to enclose mine. It is valuable space, perhaps one could install a cover plate that would allow access while maintaining a watertight status specified by Herreshoff and Joel White. On the aft deck the Haven plans call for tacking the canvas down to the aft deck. The plans I have from Mystic show that the canvas is played up along the frames to just under the sheer clamp, trimmed up and the covering boards installed on top of the canvas. This certainly would eliminate the need for cutting and tacking to fit flush with the ends of the deck except at the transom, and seems to me would offer a better seal to keep moisture out. I remember cutting the aft deck planking to fit between the frames and to mate up with the hull. After doing this, I looked at the plans, again, and I believe the outer planks are just butted to the frames. I guess this would add more ventilation for the aft compartment. So I went back and bored a few holes through all that tedious fitting work to allow for venting and possible water drainage. This is where I believe the idea of taking the canvas up the side of the frames would be the best process. The first time I launched my Haven, I did have some leaks coming in from the center board trunk and the center board cap on the long forward section. You may want to consider installing a thin cedar plug in the slot opening before you cap her off, it can always be removed later. For those like myself who have never installed machine screws on such things as coamings, the drill hole has to be absolutely perpendicular to the threaded opening or you will not get a start on your screws. You may want to give it a practice shot on some scrap before you attack the real thing. Something that I didn't do, that if I where to do again, might be to install some plugged pvc tubing just behind the aft deck bulk head walls with screws or maybe a strap. This would be a good place to store keys, wallets, maybe a few tools out of the way and handy. On a final note. I didn't use the pen that goes through the center board trunk as described in the building manual. I installed a 4" cleat to tie off the CB pennant and so far it has worked great. These are just my thoughts and hope that they will help you in some way, not necessarrily to do what I did but to start considering your options.
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jamesferguson
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posted 12-05-2001 08:50 AM
Keep rambling on...please. Very useful information!
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Dick Ramsey
Builder
Posts: 9
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-05-2001 04:17 PM
I have been visiting this web site for several weeks now and have been totally amazed, so I decided to join the frey! I have wanted to build a sail boat for a long time and have done considerable research on the web. The consensus seems to be to start with something easy, but I'm tempted to start with the Haven both because it is just what I want, and because of the support offered by this site. My woodworking skills fall into the category of "average homeowner-carpentry", but I've got determination and I'm a quick learner! Am I crazy? If I decide to go ahead I presume the place to start is with the molds? If so, could they be made out of 4x8 sheets of 3/4" particle board, thus eliminating what seems to be a rather complicated process of making them out of 1x planks? Or does there need to be open space in the molds. Would they be too heavy when it comes time to turn the hull over? I'm thinking in terms of carvel planking. Any response will be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks,

Dick

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tborah
Builder
Posts: 29
Registered: May 2001

posted 12-05-2001 05:53 PM
Welcome to the fray, Dick.
There are certainly more experienced builders than I who can give lots more advice, but I thought I would offer my 2 cents worth. I, too, would classify myself as a moderately experienced woodworker with no prior boatbuilding experience. I decided that a wooden boat would be a fun, rewarding project, and I would learn a great deal in the process. I originally decided to build a less challenging (and less beautiful) boat than the Haven because I did not want to bite off more than I could chew. However, I decided to jump right in and build the boat I REALLY wanted. Also, I figured I was probably kidding myself if I thought I would finish two boats in one lifetime (I tell my kids to pay close attention in case I don't finish one!)

Although I am only a fraction of the way along, I have thoroughly enjoyed the building and learning process, and I am glad I made the choice I did. I have finished my molds and transom, and I'm about to start on the centerboard trunk and stem. So far, so good, although I realize I have a LONG way to go, and I'm sure the more complicated stages lay ahead. This forum and the WB Forum have been extremely helpful. I would encourage you to go for it, but recognize that this is a very large project.

You should get a copy of M. Bray's "How to Build the Haven" available from WB. I spent lots of time reading through the book to understand the process and convince myself that I could handle it. It is also an invaluable guide to the building process.

re: the molds. It was the first thing I built, and I would imagine it would be the first for most people. I guess you could use 4x8 sheets of particle board, but I think you would generate tons (literally!) of waste, and it would be very expensive. In building the molds, I used the process described in WB #151, which worked great, and seemed easier than the process described in the Bray book. After the first few, I could knock out a mold in about 2 hours or so.

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Bill Sterling
Builder
Posts: 61
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-05-2001 07:19 PM
Ditto to what tborah said. Welcome, I'm also of modest woodworking skill. I chose the Haven because it inspired me years ago and inpiration is critical to endurance. I asked my classical guitar teacher once, "how many hours per day should I practice to become as good as you?" He said to practice just a little less than I wanted to each day so that I'd want to practice the next day. One must nurture and cultivate one's dreams. If it doesn't inspire you now then the dream will be harder to nurture to completion. I'm only just ready to bend the keel in place but I think I can say you'll do fine. Lots of builders will be here waiting for your questions. I've said before, however, this is not a "paint by numbers" boat. Its complicated and the plans aren't perfect in every detail. You must think for yourself. Yet, in fact, because of this, building is the adventure! Risk it!! Regarding molds: you'll need a strongback to fix the molds to (or a wooden floor in your shop). You could start with this. I think you'll be happy to have extra width on your molds during the frame bending. I'd go with 4/4s pine (or whatever) laid double thick where cross braces land so you can add the occasional nail to prevent the frames from slipping fore or aft on the bevel during bending (as the book mentions).
Welcome!!!!
Bill

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Bill Sterling
Builder
Posts: 61
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-05-2001 07:20 PM
BTW: where are you Dick? Anyone located here in California?
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Admin5
Webmaster
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posted 12-06-2001 08:08 AM
Jack Frost used 3/4 particle board for his frames:

You can see his work at: http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/cold1.html

Welcome to the Forum and keep in touch as you progress!

Tom

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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 12-06-2001 08:18 AM
Welcome Dick. With the number of Haven builders on this site, you are sure to get plenty of good advise. I, like you, looked at many boats to build in the begining, starting with, Ellen (WB), Marsh Cat, and the Biscayne Bay. But I knew that what I realy wanted to build was the Haven. I went as far as making a model of the March Cat and building the forms for the Biscayne Bay. But during that time I kept reading the How to Build the 12 1/2 book. I was afraid the boat was beyond my capabilities. I finally decided to build the boat I wanted, the Haven 12 1/2. I was lucky enough to find Don McConnel's web sight and his more than generous replies to my emails. Since then, I have talked to Don by phone and can tell you he is a fine person. So, there is plenty of support here and other places one can count on for assistance and feedback on building this wonderful boat. I especially like Bill's advise, and you will find out that when it comes down to how to do something a particular way or do something different it will be up to you as the boat builder. It can't get any better than that. Tborah also has good advise on using the method described in WB on getting out your molds. The author of that method, Bud Ingraham, is another friend I met as a result of building a Haven. He lives in Maine. He started his Haven about the time I began hanging planks. Unfortunately, family and time constraints caused him to put his building on hold. He does have the center board completed, as well as all the mold stations out and faired. Maybe when all of the Haven's on this forum are complete, we all can meet in a centeral location......who knows? Good Luck!
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Jack
Builder
Posts: 136
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-06-2001 08:17 PM
Dick : I think you would find it very beneficial to make your molds from 3/4-4/4 stock as outlined in the Haven book. I don't know whether you were contemplating a solid center to these molds but the fact that they are open provides you with clamping places for planking , which I couldn't have gotten along without. Fact is there have been times when I wanted to cut additional holes in the molds, I didn't but I was sure tempted. I've been at this 1o years for a variety of reasons and I would never regret one moment of the time I've spent. You can do it .......
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Dick Ramsey
Builder
Posts: 9
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-07-2001 10:58 AM
If I had any doubts before, the response from you guys settles it. I'm going to build a Haven! I think I'll use 3/4" particle board for the larger molds because I have several sheets left over from another project, and I think it will be easier to trace from the pattern onto the particle board than to assemble the molds as many of you have done. I will, however, cut out the center as Jack suggests for clamping purposes. I'll get started with the base or "strongback?" which I think I'll copy from Dan, with its hexagonal shape.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but I just think tracing the molds will give me a more accurate result than building them from 1x10's. I'll let you know how it works out

posted 12-06-2001 10:14 AM
Here is a shot of Dan's POF Haven.
[img]file:///C:/WINDOWS/TEMP/11280001.jpg[/img]
He is doing a fine job and will be hanging his oak sheerstrakes soon!

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Admin5
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posted 12-06-2001 11:05 AM
Paul...
Nice try! But the image has to be on a web server, not on your hard drive. You can load it to a free web server. See the thread on this forum called "Posting Photos" 10/30/01, or email it to me and I'll post it for you. (I really want to see it!)

Tom

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Dan Nielsen
Builder
Posts: 132
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-06-2001 01:36 PM
Well Guys, I am entering this BB world for the first time so be gentle. I have known Paul for about a year now since discovering, through this website, that he lives only 20 minutes from my house. We have gone out on lumber hunting missions, traded stories of woe and triumph, he has taken me for a sail in "Gina B", and if that is not enough he has loaned me some of his tools! For all of us in the building process, his advise is worthy of a listen. Paul has an incredible builders log with illustrations that demonstrate Paul's artistic side and provides an understanding of how Paul created such a beautiful boat.
Now as for the picture Paul tried to post, I tried (with emphasis on tried, since computers are not my thing) to e-mail some photos to the webmaster (or administrator?) around November 28, 2001. That date sticks out since it was one year after I started. If I managed to mash the wrong buttons, I would be happy to try again.

Thank You to the person that started this thing up, it is pretty cool but not so good for my work time productivity!

quote:
Originally posted by Admin5:
Paul...
Nice try! But the image has to be on a web server, not on your hard drive. You can load it to a free web server. See the thread on this forum called "Posting Photos" 10/30/01, or email it to me and I'll post it for you. (I really want to see it!)

Tom

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Admin5
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posted 12-06-2001 03:24 PM
Welcome Dan!
Sorry, but I never got the pictures. How about dropping them in the mail (snailmail). I'll scan them, load them to the site, and return them asap. Mail to:

Tom Strong
1747 Littlestone Rd.
Grose Pointe Woods, MI
48236

Can't wait to see your work!

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Admin5
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posted 12-06-2001 07:32 PM
Okay guys...
Here's an early Christmas present from new member Dan Nielsen: http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/nielsen/nielsen1.html

Here's a sample...

Dan conquered emailing .jpg's after all!

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 09-25-2002).]

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jamesferguson
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posted 12-07-2001 10:32 AM
Great shots Dan! Looks like you are doing a great job and I am envious of your progress. I am over in Chapel Hill and have also visited with Paul on a couple of occasions. He is an incredible resource and his boat is a true inspiration to see in person. I wish everyone interested in building a Haven could take a look at the builders log you mentioned that Paul put together...it is truely amazing. It reminded me some 17th century expedition journal, with all of the really cool pencil drawings, hand written notes, and obvious thoughtful detail. I told him that he should publish his notes under the title "How to REALLY Build the Haven 12 1/2". Thanks for the photos for more inspiration and look forward to hearing more of your progress.

Dan Nielsen
Builder
Posts: 132
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 12-07-2001 01:45 PM
It may be too late for you James, depending on your financial investment in rivets, but, based on advise from Roger, I used bronze machine screws with with washers and lock-tight to fasten frames to floor timbers. The process seemed to go pretty painlessly. I don't know were this puts you or your boat with the great debate about what Captain Nate would think, but this is another option.
quote:
Originally posted by jamesferguson:
Getting ready to start attaching floor timbers to frames this weekend. Any last words of wisdom on setting copper rivets. I have attempted a couple of samples with good success (as far as I can tell anyway), but wondered if there were any tricks.

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Bill Sterling
Builder
Posts: 61
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 12-07-2001 03:43 PM
Went easy enough for me. I did CPES the holes after drilling. Use clamps to make sure the reverse curve is set before drilling. Have you checked your forward molds against the lay of the stem rabbit to make sure the planks will land properly? If not, do so before adding the floor timbers there. Hmmm...what else?...I cut the timbers to rough dimension, installed them and finished the bevel with a grinder (with very course sanding pad). This worked very well. Oh...look at both the drawings in the book and the plans and use your judgement about which thickness to use where. There is a discrepancy..I think its on #16 where it should be 1 - 1/8" and don't forget the one in front of the trunk that faces forward. That's all I can think of. Riveting is fun and easy. Have fun.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-07-2001 07:49 PM
Dear Jim,
At various times I have used both rivets and machine screws to fasten floors to frames. Both worked well. One trick that I found with the rivets is to use copper rod as the rivet stock. Once the stock is cut to length tap a small head on one end, slide the burr over the rod and insert it through the floor and frame. Now you can have your assistant hold the bucking bar or hammer head against the end that was slightly headed so that you can start heading over the other end.

The slight head on the one end keeps the burr from dropping off (which usually happens just when you don't want it to) and also keeps you from having to go mucking around on the shop floor looking for it. After you get both heads fairly started then you can alternate from side to side until the rivet head is just right. Also I have found that many small blows with the hammer are better than a few hefty whacks.

I will be in and out most of the week end. If you have any problems give me a call and I will see if I can do anything to help.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Jim Reineck
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posted 12-14-2001 01:12 AM
Just a comment about floor-to-frame fastenings; they are not nearly as important as the floor-to-plank fastenings. Almost all the frames in my 1905 Buzzards Bay 15 Footer that were broken were broken at the rivets from the floors to the frames. Many floors were not well fastened to the planking, which would have I believe prevented strain on the rivets and the failures that I have seen. There are some designers that omit the floor-to-frame rivets, but never the floor to plank fastenings. It is recommended that the fastenings used from floor to frame be the at least same size and quantity as those used for the frames.
Jim Reineck
J.M. Reineck & Son

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Bill Sterling
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posted 12-14-2001 06:23 PM
Huh? I'm confused. How could you possibly omit floor to frame fastenings!? What would hold the frames in place...in fact what job would the frames have at all. The book shows keel fastened to floor timbers, floor timbers fastened to frames, and frames fastened to planks...never planks fastened to floors. Am I wrong? Are you recommending that screws be secured from planks into the floors instead of into the frames wherever possible?
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-14-2001 07:35 PM
Dear Bill,
You are absolutely right. I have owned my own Herreshoff Boat for 31 years. I have replaced most of her floors. In addition I have particupated in the restoration of numerous Herreshoff Boats at the Museum of Yachting and at many boat yards. Herreshoff did not fasten planks to floors. We did not find one example of that in all the boats that we did. The standard Herreshoff method was to fasten the floors to the keel or deadwood. The frames were fastened to the floors and the planks were fastened to the frames. It might interest you to know that the method of using wood screws to fasten planks to steam bent frames was invented by Nat Herreshoff.

I am sure that someplace in the world some builder has fastened his planks to the floors but in all the Herreshoff boats that I have helped with I have never seen an example of it being done at Herreshoff Mfg. The only variation that I did see was that some boats used rivets between frames and floors and some used bolts.

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Jim Reineck
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posted 12-15-2001 05:06 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Sterling:
[B]Huh? I'm confused.
Bill,

Apologies for inadvertently discussing something that I was until now not aware had been left out of the How to Builder booklet. You are quite right that there would be nothing to hold the floors in place while the boat is being built. In fact, I think that was the main reason for the rivets. Herreshoff’s upside down manufacturing method required them to facilitate the assembly line process he perfected. I hate to be the one to say this, but Herreshoff did have problems with leaks in the garboard seams and weakness in the mast steps of some of his boats probably because of too few fastenings into the floor timbers. As I said before, this was a problem with my boat. I work with most of the restoration shops and builders in New England and they all strive to compensate for this shortcoming in their restoration s and in new construction. I am sure that not specifying fastenings from the plank into the floors was an inadvertent omission on Maynard’s part. (Roger’s boat has bronze straps let into the outside of the planking and down into the deadwood to hold the garboard seam shut so he would not have had to deal this problem.) There are many omissions and assumptions made in Maynard’s booklet. You may have noticed that there is almost no information about how to rig the boat, a block list, installation instructions for the bow chocks, coaming corner brackets, oarlock sockets, making the gaff jaws, etc. Maynard only hits on the high points and all of you know there could have been more information.

I am not suggesting that you omit the fastenings to the ribs in this area, quite to the contrary! Securely fastening the overlapping area of the floors and the ribs on the first few planks to make a good connection from the backbone to the ribs is absolutely essential to a watertight boat. The copper rivets do not have the strength to so this job alone. Think of it this way. For the moment, leave out the ribs and the upper planking. What holds the garboard seam shut? The obvious answer is the floor timbers, but only if the lower planks are attached to them. This makes a very secure tight garboard seam. From there up the strength is transmitted into the boat by lapping the ribs on to these lower planks and securely fastening them. Fastening the planks (in most cases two) to the ribs and the floors securely connects them. The rivets should fall near the centerline of each plank so that the 1”x #8 woodscrews, at least two per plank, near the edges don’t hit them.

Substituting bolts for the rivets for the floor to rib connection is not a good idea. The book says, and I agree, the holes for the rivets should be a little smaller that the rivet body to get a good tight fit. This is impossible since bolts are threaded and will cut into the sides of the holes and work loose under load. Every detail of the structure associated with the garboard seam and the keel is important.

Cutting the rivets off with about 1/8” left above the rove and then tapping with increasingly heavier blows around the edges of the rivets using the rounded end of a ball peen hammer will do the job.

I knew I had seen the floor topic in print from a reliable source, and here it is. I saw it the book, How to Build a Wooden Boat, published by WoodenBoat Magazine in 1987 and written by Bud McIntosh who has been building boats for 50 years (as of 1987). The book is compilation of articles published over years in WoodenBoat Magazine. He devotes full ten pages in this book to floor timbers of various designs and to preventing leaks in the garboards. Included in this discussion are many illustrations and one shows the floor timbers next to the ribs with no connection at all between them. He never even mentions floor-to-rib fastenings in this chapter! That is where I got what I suggested and it is what I have done with my boat. I will quote only this, from page 87. “Fasten from the planks into the floors as if your reputation depended upon it, as indeed it may.”

Jim Reineck
J.M. Reineck & Son

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-16-2001).]

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jkuehn
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posted 12-17-2001 09:43 AM
Jim
I'm a newcomer to wooden boat building, but I have been studying the Haven plans for some time and will start construction soon. Just to be sure I understand, you're saying the garboards should be attached with screws to both the floors and the frames, at top and bottom of the garboard plank? That would mean 4 screws, 2 on top (1 into floor and 1 into frame), 2 on the bottom (same as on top) through each garboard, at each floor/frame intersection. Is that correct?

Thanks

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Paul
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posted 12-17-2001 12:14 PM
Greg Rossel(sp?) recommends that planking in the way floor timbers be attached to the floor timber as well as the frames. On my boat the frames are attached to the floor timbers with rivets as specified in the How to Build the Haven book, and the planking is attached to both the floor timber and the frame with #8 FHWS.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-17-2001 08:03 PM
In the past few days I have contacted several master boat builders about the fastening of hull planking to the floors. Most of their comments were unprintable. The most delicate comment was that "Only a complete idiot would fasten a hull plank into the end grain of a floor. There is a good chance that the screw will, in time split the end grain of the wood". Planks are fastened to frames and frames are fastened to floors. Period.
As far as the use of threaded fasteners through the frames and floors (machine screws or hex head bolts) all agree that this works fine. Most prefer this to rivets. As long as the wood being used is good and dry the wood will swell around the threads when the boat is in the water. My builders feel that this will give added holding power.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Jim Reineck
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posted 12-17-2001 09:46 PM
Paul, it couldn't be said more concisely. Thanks for your clarity. As for fastening into end grain, that is only even close to true in the bow of the boat which is not the area of concern. The bilges and the keel area is the place most likely to leak and there the garboards are much closer to horizontal. If you wish to leave them out in the bow, no loss. The floors are very short there anyway.
P.S. The discussion on floors by Bud McIntosh that I refered to is in WoodenBoat #44 Page 43 for those lucky enough to have back issues.

P.P.S jkuehn, You are correct, put one screw into each edge of the planks that cross both the floors and the ribs. Make sure that the rivets are well centered on the planks (so you don't hit them) and that you don't put the lower screws through where you cut the limbers in the garboards.

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jim Reineck (edited 12-17-2001).]

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Paul
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posted 12-18-2001 12:26 PM
If you read enough books on boat building and ask all the boat builders you find, you will find a common thread....everyone has their opinion and personal method of contruction. I know for a fact that Rossel, McIntosh, Chapelle, Steward, Gardner, Barry Thomas, Thomas Kolin, Ian Oughtred, and other articles put out by WB don't all agree in every aspect of boat building. To say a particular way is not correct or 'bad' boat building is only one's opinion, as another resource will more than likely challenge and prove it wrong or more importantly indifferent. I have found several different methods of doing the same job, while reading the above books. Not eveyone constructed a boat like Herreshoff and you will read cases of where his method was not the best to be used, while many of his other methods where clearly masterful. Now for my opionion (yes I have one also)...I prefer the rivet option for attaching frames to the floor timbers and see no reason why a #8 screw attaching the plank to the floor frame could present a problem. I feel very comfortable using this method knowing I have obtained solid construction advise from the above boat building sources. Am I committing a terrible unprintable boat building error? I don't think so.
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Jack
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posted 12-18-2001 06:57 PM
Yep! Terrible so I won't print it. Jack O.
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FrankP
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posted 12-20-2001 01:23 PM
As a brand new member to this forum (found out about it from a thread on the Wooden Boat forum site) I was interested in the discussion on fastenings. When I read Roger Winiarski's comment "Herreshoff did not fasten planks to floors." I had to pop in.
Last May I came into possession of an H28 that was built in Japan in '61. It's a slightly modified version with a raised cabin and a bowsprit. It's been up on blocks for 8 years or so (filled with rainwater for a long time) and there's enough deterioration inside that I'm carefully taking things apart and replacing them. The first floor I examined was very definitely fastened to both the frame (which was badly rotted at the bottom) and to the planks.

Roger, is this not the original Herreschoft approach to fastening? As I get ready to replace the floor with a new one should I plug the holes in the planks or stay with the original approach and screw the planks to the floor as well as to the frame?

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Paul
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posted 12-20-2001 05:04 PM
Come on Jack O., we're all interested in this lovely boat and everyone is entitled to express his or her views! Lets hear what you have to say.
By the way.........Merry Christmas - Everyone!

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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-20-2001 07:45 PM
Dear FrankP
The H-28 was designed by L. Francis Herreshoff who was one of the two boat designing sons of the great Nat Herreshoff. The Haven 12 1/2 is a slightly modified version of Nat's original 1914 design.

Since your boat was built in Japan there is no telling what liberties the builders took. L. Francis Herreshoff had very little connection with Herreshoff Mfg. Co. after he went out on his own. Most of his best designs came about after Herreshoff Mfg. Co. closed down at the end of WWII.

It was the standard practice at Herreshoff Mfg. Co. to fasten the frames to the floors and the planks to the frames. The fastening of planks to steam bend frames using wood screws was invented by Nat Herreshoff. Prior to that planks were riveted or nailed to saw cut frames.

Since your boat has been filled with rain water for some period of time the first thing that I would do is to dry her out and inspect her for signs of rot. Fresh water rots wood while salt water preserves it. If you have rot you may have to replace the rotted pieces (floors, frames, planks).

An old boat builder's trick for tightening up the seams in an old boat is first to refasten the boat, then replace the garboards spiled nice and tight with very dry wood. When the boat is launched the garboards swell and push all the seams above them tight.

If you boat has fastenings into the floors from the planks now I don't think that anyone will beat you with a stick for continuing the practice. In the thirty-one years that I have owned my boat I have found that Nat Herreshoff was right about most things. Since he didn't use fastenings from the planks into the floors I haven't done so on my boat either.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Jack
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posted 12-21-2001 12:20 AM
Hey! I'M just kidding. It just looked like a good place for a little humor. I'm certainly not slamming anyone.
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Paul
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posted 12-21-2001 07:48 AM
We all can use a sense of humor! I think it makes things a lot more interesting. No offense taken!
This post is getting a lot of really good discussion and Bill has carried it over to the WB forum, so it's getting even more.
Last night I looked up to see exactly what Steward, McIntosh and Rossel said about fastening and each one was consistent with fastening the frames to the floor timbers. Rossel and McIntosh also recommended that the planks be fastened to the floor timbers. Steward didn't go into fastening in that much detail with the planking, only on the floor timber and framing details.
So, how can you go wrong with following the advise of these boat builders and authors?
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Tom
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posted 11-15-2003 10:31 PM
In reviewing this thread and the "How To..." book, I'm not sure whether or not the garboard plank should be screwed to the centerboard bed logs. It seems to me that it should. Comments?
[This message has been edited by Tom (edited 11-15-2003).]

posted 12-14-2001 06:54 PM
A gallery of completed boats has been started at: http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/gallery.html
Send your photos, especially of boats under sail by email or snailmail to:
Tom Strong
1747 Littlestone Rd.
Grosse Pointe Woods, MI

posted 12-17-2001 10:03 PM
I'd like to get some opinions on this situation. As some may recall, I was going to attempt the transom in white oak. I pulled only the best stuff from the air dried stack and put it together nicely with alternating ring patterns, and chock full o' bronze drifts. The thing glued up great and looks really nice if I may say so myself. I was still in the process of finish sanding the thing and left it sitting on the bench to come back to later. Being a part time builder only, I came back two days later and found the thing cupped upward from the bench...woe is me! Of course, the weather probably had alot to do with the situation as it has not rained down here in about 2 months, but it sure did over the two days I left it sitting there on the bench. I have pretty successfully flattened it out again by flipping it over and applying distributed weight across the middle. As for the question...is this type of movement something to be concerned about, and the real question would be if the transom is fit to build a boat around? It would be a real shame to waste it, as it did come out quite nicely, but I have some mahogany at the ready should the need arise. Thoughts?
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Bill Sterling
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posted 12-17-2001 10:50 PM
No worries! The same thing happened to me with my Honduras Mahagony transom. This is just a scary, but harmless way to learn the effects of uneven water absorption. Your transom is naked to humidity in the air and if only one side is exposed then that side will not be in equilibrium with the other side. Wood cells on one side will expand disproportionally to the other. Set it up on spacers or lean it nearly upright somewhere so that both sides are exposed to air. Even better, hurry up and finish sanding and then seal both sides with CPES and a few coats of varnish. Even then it will absorb moisture, just more slowly so storage is important. My transom bowed with a cup about 3/16 inches deep and I nearly had a heart attack! Don't force it back though. Just let it re-equilibrate and you may relax. I do highly recommend having it sanded by someone with a wide thickness sander. I can't imagine that I could have possible matched the flatness achieved by this method. Certainly not in 10 minutes! Definitely worth the $20! Call up some cabinet maker and ask if they'll run it through for you (after it equilibrates!). Later.
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Bill Sterling
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posted 01-02-2002 03:29 PM
Hey James, did it flatten back out?
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jamesferguson
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posted 01-07-2002 07:16 AM
Bill, Thanks for the info on your experiences. I was quite disappointed there for a while, but was encouraged by your account. My transom did indeed flatten out perfectly, after which I quickly finished the sanding and coated both sides with CPES and varnish. Hopefully this will keep the thing from doing anymore gymnastics.
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Bill Sterling
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posted 01-07-2002 12:22 PM
Great. I believe it will stay flat now but only if both sides are exposed to air. Good goin'.

Dick Ramsey
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posted 12-19-2001 07:09 PM
Thinking ahead ( a looong time) to the time when I'll be pouring a keel, where did you guys get the lead? Is lead from tire weights suitable? If so, I'll start asking nearby tire stores to save it for me. Any other suggestions?
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 12-19-2001 07:34 PM
Dear Dick,
Any lead will do for your keel. Tire weights will work fine. One of the largest manufacturers of keels on the east coast is here in Rhode Island. They recycle automobile batterys.

One of my best customers is Eric Dow of Brooklin, Maine. He has built more Havens that anyone else. A few years ago I was able to put him in contact with the caster I mentioned above. He was able to reduce the price that he paid for keels by quite a bit. Eric's steel keel pattern is now here in Rhode Island. In the past he has been agreeable to letting private builders buy keels from him from that pattern. The last time that I checked his price was about $850.00.

If you would like to pour your own keel then any lead that you come up with will do. If you would like to buy one from Eric you can reach him at 207-359-2277.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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Admin5
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posted 12-19-2001 08:40 PM
Dick, check out this web site for info on using tire weights: http://www.rutuonline.com/html/wheel_weights.html (Link no longer works)
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Paul
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posted 12-21-2001 07:59 AM
I can only relay what I have read about the subject. First thing is you can't be too careful around lead, so follow all the safety suggestions and more.
Lead has to have a certain amount of antimony(sp) to give it some hardness. I don't think you would want to use pure lead from what I have read. However, for a keel this shallow it may not matter a great deal. Tire weights have the antimony already mixed in with the lead in the right amounts for a keel. I was fortunate enough to get almost all of my tire weights free by just asking around tire stores in the area.
Roger is in line with the price from Eric Dow. I was quoted a price of around $800 about a year or so ago.
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Bill Sterling
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posted 12-21-2001 03:56 PM
I think its 4% Antimony. Wheel weights are fine. They melt down to about 1/4 of the unmelted volume. X-ray shielding lead does not typically have the antimony so it would need to be added and then submitted to a lab to measure antimony after final mixing. (FYI, this could be done by a lab with an x-ray fluorescence spectrometer). If you use mostly wheel weights then no worries. I do stongly suggest you pre-melt in coffee cans to remove the clips prior to final melt. Don't even think about doing all the smelting in one large pot. Take great care...do it outside...wear a faceshield...make sure everything you add to molten lead is bone dry...wash up afterwards...and don't smoke.

posted 12-21-2001 10:26 PM
We now have the capability of putting short videos on the web site. This might be appropriate for a keel pour or a launching! If you have tapes you would like to have posted on the site, please contact the webmaster at: info@havenbuilders.com
Thanks,

Tom

000062
Topic: Seam, caulking
Jack
Builder
Posts: 141
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posted 12-31-2001 05:00 PM
Although I am not at the point of caulking just yet; I have been giving it some thought. Especially since I read so many different threads about this or that as the way to go. Any of you Haven builders or others for that matter like to share your solution to this step in building? I happened to be reading through some of Smith & Co. literature and they discussed using CPES and the a two-part polysulfide rubber compound. For a boat that I will probably have in and out of the water quite often, this sounds like a good way to go..???Any and all info greatly appreciated. Jack O
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 01-01-2002 09:54 AM
Dear Jack,
There are probably as many methods to caulk a boat as there are boat builders. Everyone has their own method. I like the cotton and polysulfide method myself.

I am fortunate enough to live next to a 67 year old master boat builder. One trick that he likes to use for a boat that is going to be "dry sailed" is to use burlap. Place a layer of burlap in the bilge a day or so before sailing the boat and wet down the burlap. The burlap will retain the water and and allow the hull to absorb it and swell up. Remove the damp burlap before you go sailing and you will have a tight boat.

You never want to fill a boat with water. It is not designed or constructed to handle the weight. The weight of the gallon or two necessary to wet the burlap is not a problem.

Every boat builder has his own "tricks" and I am sure that there will be other postings that you will find helpful as well.

As you go along if you have any questions that I can help with I can be reached at 401-625-5224.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze

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Dan Nielsen
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posted 01-02-2002 01:34 PM
Well, I cannot tell you how well it will keep the water out just yet, but over the New Year Holiday I caulked and compounded my hull. I used about 5 balls of caulk. I set 2 to 4 twisted strands of it in the seams with Paul Bunch's home made caulking wheel (about 4 hours). I taped off the seams in an effort to reduce cleanup time (about 2 hours). I painted the seams/caulk with thinned red lead (about 4 hours). Then I applied Sikaflex 291 lot (about 5 tubes) by injecting the seams with the caulk gun. I smoothed and pushed a little with the putty knife and ended with the back of a teaspoon (about 4 hours). Removed all the tape yesterday (about 1 hour) only a few hours after appling the compound so that boo-boos could be fixed easily. No boo-boos but my fingers are going to be black with Sikaflex for quite a while.
I strongly recommend using the tape and getting the tape very close to the seams. It will save lots of cleanup time. I did the work on on very dry planks and fully expect lots of oozing when the humidity goes up or she gets wet.

[This message has been edited by Dan Nielsen (edited 01-02-2002).]

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Bill Sterling
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posted 01-02-2002 03:22 PM
I plan on strip planking but I've heard that caulking must be done on soaked planks otherwise they'll swell and pop off the frames. To soak the planks people rig up a drip system or soaker hose on the hull. This is one of the reasons I'm leaning away from Carvel. Don't mean to frighten you...I have zero experience in this. Anyone else weigh in on caulking dry planks?

posted 01-09-2002 08:36 AM
I was surfing the net looking for Haven pix and found this foreign site - http://www.puuvene.net/Lehti/1997-1/haven.html. This Haven pictured here is really beautiful and the decks look really cool. Showing my boating ignorance, I am guessing that this is some kind of traditional deck, but can anyone give me some info on this type of deck, such as is it well suited for this particular craft, and what type of wood is used for these decks, what's in the seams, etc. Just like to explore all options.
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Seppo Narinen
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posted 01-09-2002 09:22 AM
First, The magazine by name 'Puuvene' means Wooden Boat. More pictures can be found from the web site of the firm building Havens in Finland: http://personal.inet.fi/business/veistamo.jheikkila/. See my mail 9-18-2001.
My Haven has quite similar decks in my Haven. First 5 mm mahogany plywood, epoxied both sides before assembling, then 10 mm (oregon) pine strips epoxied. The seams are of epoxy and the black color is done by using some graphite in epoxy. The deck is epoxied, I used glass cloth, pure epoxy is used, too. 2-3 layers 2-component varnish on top.
- And the result is quite slippery...
I prefer you contact Jarmo Heikkilä to know, how he is building his Haven and Buzzard Bay decks.
/ Seppo
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jamesferguson
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posted 01-09-2002 09:58 AM
To jump to the site I mentioned, remove the period from the end of the url and you will see the deck I described. Try this...
http://www.puuvene.net/Lehti/1997-1/haven.html
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Admin5
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posted 01-09-2002 10:05 AM
I had trouble navigating to the URLs above. The problem is that a period was typed in immediateley after the URL (no space) http://www.puuvene.net/Lehti/1997-1/haven.html and http://personal.inet.fi/business/veistamo.jheikkila/ should work
Hope it works because there are some nice pictures there!

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flyon
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posted 01-09-2002 02:13 PM
The consensus of thought on the wooden boat forum is that laid decks are not appropriate on boats less than 30 feet or so. They are beautiful but I think I will stick with a fabric covered painted deck
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jamesferguson
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posted 01-09-2002 02:13 PM
Seppo, Thanks for the info. Do you know if this method is discussed in any books or articles anywhere? Woodenboat magazine has an article in the current issue about laid decks, which looks similar, but the method you describe seems it may wear better and leak less. Also, do you have any pictures of your boat? Anyone else have any preferences for decks, or experiences to share? The book describes two different types for fore and aft.
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Paul
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posted 01-09-2002 04:30 PM
Laid decks are very beautiful. The only draw back that I can think of,it makes for a slippery surface, as Seppo mentioned. Of course I don't think one would be spending much time walking on the deck of a Haven, or at least I haven't.
It sure is pretty. I wonder why it should be limited to boats of a certain length? I thought about it myself but decided to go the canvas method, fore and aft.
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flyon
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posted 01-09-2002 05:13 PM
I believe that the idea is a laid deck needs to be thick enough to hold the chaulking ect. On a boat as small as a haven or flatfish the laid deck would be to heavy.
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Paul
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posted 01-10-2002 07:47 AM
I guess it would be. The method that Seppo descriped gives the impression of a laid deck without the weight. I think that would be the way to go for the Haven.
Has anyone discovered a way to make the foreward compartment watertight and still be able to use it for storage without sacrificing looks?
I was at the St. Michaels's WB show the first year it was in Maryland. There was a beautiful strip built Haven built by Ilex (sp?). The inside was all finished bright. On this bulkhead they had finished out an opening and had a panel of veneer just behind the mast. I guess it was 12"x 16" approximately. I didn't check closely but I think it was screwed in place. The boat was kept on a trailer, so I guess it may have been used for storage and was easily accessable when the mast was down. If I can find some extra pictures of the boat, I'll send them to Tom to post so everyone can have a look.
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jamesferguson
Moderator
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posted 01-10-2002 08:33 AM
I sent an email to the builder in Finland and will post any additional info on the deck if I get a reply.
I have been pondering the decks and bulkhead alot lately, and have been wondering the same thing Paul asked. I think that Roger mentioned a while back that most folks he has dealt with have not enclosed the bulkhead for want of the space. I wonder if any additional flotation could be added and leave it open. I would like to have the boat be as safe as possible for the kids, but would also like to utilize some of the space as well as have inspection access. I have seen mention of the use of foam or air tanks on other craft. Has anyone had any experience with this type of scenario and how could it be configured?

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flyon
Builder
Posts: 29
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-10-2002 10:54 AM
I have though about using an inflatable bag of some sort to fill the area ahead of the mast. You could then have a fairly good size hatch and when not sailing deflate the bag and use the space for storage. Would a hatch on the deck interfear with the running rigging?
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Paul
Builder
Posts: 231
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-10-2002 02:14 PM
I remember reading that Herreshoff did make a couple of 121/2's with flotation tanks(?) under the seats. I don't know how many were actually made or how the forward compartment was arranged. You always hear about how this little boat has endured as long as it has without any significant modifications. I believe the Bullseyes and Doughdishes have built in floatation tanks. We know the boats were originally built as trainers, so maybe thats why Herreshoff made the forward bulkhead watertight.....as an added safety features for the unskilled.......like myself.
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Roger F. Winiarski
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posted 01-11-2002 07:35 PM
Dear Jim and Paul,
Don't worry about the watertight flotation chambers forward and aft. Unless you are the worst sailors in the world you won't need them. I have sailed on Narragansett Bay and Buzzards Bay for over fifty years. Both areas have many many 12 1/2's. Just about every one has an opening in both bulkheads to allow for additional storage space. I have never known of a 12 1/2 to capsize. I'm not saying that it is impossible but you would have to work hard at it to make it happen.

A year or so ago one of my customers, a hand surgeon by profession and a furniture maker by hoby built a Haven. He made hatches both fore and aft. They were off center to allow full time access. He used the beautiful detachable Herreshoff hinges that I make on the doors. There were small brackets on the inside of the bulkheads for storage of the doors when not in use. The whole boat was beautiful.

You will find the additional storage space very handy for the anchor and line, motor and motor bracket, tools, life jackets and all the rest of the "stuff" that most boaters (including myself) drag around with them.

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224

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jamesferguson
Moderator
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posted 01-15-2002 08:07 AM
The builder of the beautiful Haven pictured on the website was nice enough to give me some additional information about the decks, and I will try to convey accurately. The decks are traditional according to the builder. He reports that laying the sprung deck is a bit tricky on this boat because of the quite hard turn in the bow. The strips are about 30 mm wide and 16 mm thick, and must be steam bent. He has used oregon pine or iroko.
I don't know that much about this type of deck, but at 16 mm, it seems that it is not much more wood than if you used the same method described in the book for the aft deck.

There has been debate on whether these decks are fit for small boats like the Haven, but you cannot deny their beauty.

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rogerm
Valued Junior Member
Posts: 2
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-15-2002 10:48 AM
When I built my Haven I put in teak decks fore and aft. I cut teak down into 1/4" thick pieces and laid them on 3/8 marine ply. Epoxied them down and used a graphite mix with the epoxy for the "seams".It gets a little messy when you sand it down the first time as the carbon migrates with the sanding. I finished it by hand with the grain and it cleaned up great. I laid the strips straight. I couldn't find a way to bend them to the sheer curve, I used my trusty Makita electric stapler with plastic banding material to hold the teak in place while setting, then a "yank" and the staples came out. The holes just dissapeared after all the sanding. The decking is left natural and has stood up well since 1995 and it is not slippery.
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jamesferguson
Moderator
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posted 01-17-2002 04:15 PM
Just to round out the decking discussion, I actually found a product that sounds like it may be an in-between option, if anyone else may be interested: Bruynzeel makes a plywood product that is teak with approx. 5mm rubber strips laid every 50mm on center. It is made for decking, and gives the look of a tradition deck, without the weight. The "seems" are obviously straight, but still a great look. The stuff costs a mint per sheet, but yet something else to consider. Cheers.
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rprhaven
Builder
Posts: 6
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 03-02-2002 11:40 PM
There is a company in Florida that will make teak deck any size, shape or curve. I looked into it and it was about $2000+ for the fore and aft decks. Too much! However their procuct is really impressive.
They have a web site but I cannot remember it at the moment. I'll let you know.
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rprhaven
Builder
Posts: 6
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 03-03-2002 07:04 PM
The name of the company in Florida is Teak decking systems. Here is their Web site: http://www.teakdecking.com/

000064
Topic: Links
Admin5
Webmaster
Posts: 495
Registered:

posted 01-09-2002 04:44 PM
A couple of new links have been added to the main menu at: www.havenbuilders.com under the heading "Haven Web Sites", thanks to James Ferguson. Please feel free to suggest other sites for links under this menu selection.
Tom

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-09-2002).]

posted 01-10-2002 05:17 PM
Dan has once again come through with great new photos of his work in progress. Congratulations Dan! http://www.havenbuilder.com/havmem/nielsen/nielsen2.html

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Author Topic: Forum erratic
Admin5
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posted 10-24-2007 06:29 PM
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